What is considered the most effective general strategy when dealing with Wakeup Reversals? Jab OS?
Specifically, do Reversals with Invincibility Frames always beat well-timed Meaties? It seems extremely difficult to maintain pressure in the SF4 series due to the power of Reversals in this game, which is something I’ve never had a problem with in other Street Fighter games.
Also, what situations do you feel people generally open themselves up to Counterhit in SF4, outside Option Select Throw? I know this is heavily character dependent, especially in a game were so few moves yield positive frames, still, in most fighting games there tend to be general situations where CHs are likely due to the flow of the game.
I guess should have just stuck with the Meaty vs Reversals question.
I get that Wakeup and Quick Get Up situations are essentially a guessing game that you can get to work in your favor through conditioning your opponent. What I’m looking for, is means through the game’s engine to stuff reversals so I can take that option away.
If I recall correctly, some reversals were changed in Super to make it so that they can actually get stuffed now. At the very least, I know that a well timed meaty j.hp from Juri will stuff wakeup Shoryukens and Flash Kicks.
Super seems more balanced now in terms of meaties vs reversals. Many reversals don’t have instant invincibility or will at least trade, while some of the more risky reversals do give some invincibility. The knowledge that your opponent may or may not use their reversal depends on how and when to use a nice meaty. Some characters don’t even have reversals so your oki on their wakeup will be in your favor. Also keep a good eye on their ex meter, because having meter determines if someone is more willing to use a reversal or not.
But yea some characters have nice beefy overheads to keep people honest on wakeup, then once thats out in the open you have more options to keep the other guy guessing.
If you’re talking online play where things like ‘mind games’ are thrown out the window, the safest strategy is to not attempt a meaty on anyone, ever, and punish whatever they decide to mash out on wakeup. This goes double if they have Ultra. If you don’t have a fireball, get comfortable with down-back because that’s your only completely safe option against random shit on wakeup.
Dealing with wake-up reversals depends completely on what reversal move is being used. Knowing what your opponents options are will definitely help. The information you need to know has mostly to do with invincibility.
Full Invincibility: Invincibility applies to start-up frames and at least 1 active frame. This will beat your meaty no matter what because he’s hitting you before his invincibility runs out.
An example would be Ryu’s Shoryuken, which will beat any meaty upon wake-up.
Start-up Invincibility: Invincibility applies to all of the start-up frames, but none of the active frames. This will result in a trade with your meaty, since the reversal will hit you on the exact same frame that he becomes vulnerable to your attacks.
An example would be C.Viper’s HP Thunder Knuckle, which becomes vulnerable on the same frame as it becomes active.
Limited Start-up Invincibility: There is invincibility but runs out before the attack connects. It can be beat by a meaty.
An example would be C.Viper’s EX Seismic Hammer, which can be stuffed for a counter hit.
Conditional Invincibility: One of the above invincibility rules apply, but is somehow otherwise limited.
An example would be Balrog’s Headbutt, which has full invincibility against everything that doesn’t hit low.
To deal with wake-up reversals, you need to know what wake-up options the opponent has, and either exploit his lack of options, or even abundance of options. For examples:
-Cody has no meter. You know that he has no invincible wake-up options. You continue your attack with a meaty jump-in.
-You’ve knocked down Viper and she has 1 EX Meter. You know that her EX Seismic Hammer can be stuffed, EX Burning Kick won’t hit you if you’re crouching, and her HP Thunder Knuckle is risky on block and will trade at best. You pressure her with a meaty c.MK.
As for fishing for counter-hits, option select throw is the main thing that comes to mind, but some people don’t know which of their moves are invincible or not. Most T.Hawk players think that they could beat out meaties with a DP or 360 on wake-up. A lot of Blankas like to use Electricity on wake-up too.
Finally, you could always use frame data to your advantage. For example, Ken’s EX Hurricane Kick is +1 on hit. Following up with his 3f crouchign short will counter hit anything they attempt outside of an invincible reversal. If it’s blocked, you get a kara throw attempt. If it hits, you combo from it.
A more practical example would be from Ryu’s c.LPs/c.MPs into c.MK/c.HK. This is more than just a generic block string. It is calculated. c.LP/c.MP is +2 on block, c.MK/c.HK has a 5 frame startup. It will trade with 3f jabs (in Ryu’s favor), and counter anything else.
It is impossible to counter hit a (Go)Shoryuken in SF4, (correct me if I’m wrong here) in ANY Street Fighter game.
I made a thread a while back but no one ever responded. Anyway this is basically the same thing i’m asking so let me clarify.
With people wtih command throws (like gief and thawk), does the threat of a possible spd/EX spd limit my jump in or crouching meaty openings? I mean they are like 1 frame reversals with full invincibility right?
Secondly, i heard that the ryu/ken/akuma dragon punches beat out all reversals. knowing that, do people usually stray away from mix ups involving low meaties against them? if so, what do you do? cross up?
Zangief’s SPD and T.Hawk’s Mexican Typhoon are 2 frame startup, no invincibility.
EX versions are 4 frame startup, full invincibility.
T.Hawk without meter can’t do anything about a meaty. Zangief still has Lariat.
They don’t beat out all reversals. It depends. They are invincible during startup + one active frame. If they’re facing a move that has more invincibility frames, they will be beat.
All invincible reversals are vulnerable to “safe jump-ins”, where the meaty attack connects but if the opponent does an invincible reversal causing your jump-in to whiff, you’ll still be able to land and block before the reversal hits you. The longer the start-up on the attack, the easier it is to perform a safe jump-in.
I think that fighting against a shoto is a much harder if you’re scared of reversal DP and aren’t willing to challenge their wake-up.
-If I knockdown gief or thawk and they have no ex bar, I can open up with a meaty into block string with fairly good chances to beat out their spd? (i.e. if i throw them with dudley i can dash in and then open up with cr lp or cr mp?)
-If they have ex bar, is it better to jump in or bait the ex reversal by jumping up?
I think i wrote my point on the shotokans wrong but i think you knew what i was referring to. I do not know what movies have more invincibility frames than a dragon punch with dudley. But saying that there aren’t any, are u suggesting that I jump in with a deep jump HK and hold back while i’m in the air? so that if the uppercut comes out hopefully it whiffs and I end up blocking it? I assume that if the opponent opts not to go for the reversal at this point then i just poke with the jab and enter a block string… sorry i’m really trying to be much more technical about this game as my previous experience with SF games has been throw fireballs all game and punish jump ins… NEVER used pokes and cross ups as a main strategy to victory.
There have been tons of posts on how in SF4, and I assume super, you do not automatically recover once you’re grounded after whiffing an air attack. These frames after you land and before you can block leave you vulnerable to 3frame startup reversals (shoryus). but not to tiger uppercuts. I’m sure you can find the thread if you look around. Basically, you cannot safe-jump 3f reversals unless it’s an empty jump.
I think they debunked that. You can’t do it in the conventional way, but if your aerial has enough range that you retract out of the range of the reversal when you hit the ground, you can do it despite not being able to block for a few frames, as you won’t get tagged by the initial active frames, or tagged at all.
Yes, I really love BokChoy’s post, I hope there’s information on the web somewhere listing all typical reversals, classifying them, and classifying their invincibility frames.
Beat a reversal by FADCing your own “reversal”:**
Anyhow, you’re using ken right?
One thing I did as ryu or ken against vs. people threatening reversals is I just did a hard punch shoryuken as people were getting up, followed by FADC. (with ken of course you want to FADC at the second hit). Sometimes with ken, I do the EX shoryuken FADC, since EXshoryuken seems to even beat out some of the ultras in this game. This works really well with guile’s flash kick.
I’m not sure about invincibility frames, and maybe i’ve been hit out of this once or twice. And if they block your FADC, it doesn’t really put you in the best position of course… but i stuff like this keeps the speed and pressure going.
And of course, this is still situational, such as against a C.Viper who’s been using EX ground smash’s a lot (you’ll fly right over her)
I haven’t been playing shotos that much in SSF4 yet, so I haven’t tested if this works better or not in the new game.
more random stuff:
I play a LOT of vega, and when I do, I keep a ranged distance as people are geting enough. It’s enough distance to make people think “my reversal will only hit if he attacks at the same time”. I thus get less frequent reversals. Vega kinda applies pressure by just keeping this threatening distance, so I guess it’s not the same type of pressure other characters apply.
Another trick I use with vega is i crouch/stand directly over them, and then do a forwards/backwards jumping hard punch right as they are getting up. This of course is kinda character specific to vega. Jumping forwards leads me to a surprise grab, jumping back lets me keep my distance.