Huh - I didn’t know it wasn’t just the first frame anymore. At any rate, it’s a move done “immediately” after being able to move again, as opposed to “a good tactic on wakeup.”
They’re still executed as soon as your character can move, they can just be inputted on frames before that now.
Yup, the input can be before you wake up, its not like you do the reversal 4 frames after you get up; a reversal is a move that always comes out the first frame possible when waking up/coming out of block stun, and the window to input it before the stun/wakeup ends varies from game to game
Also, what is wrong with Punish and Block? If you’re always being hit out of it, you’re just as predictable as the person always doing wakeup SRK
Well lets stop arguing about the semantics of a reversal because we all know it’s basically a counter-hit, no matter which move does it.
Well I’m clearly posting this in the newbie forum so calling me predictable is counter-productive. The problem with Punish and Block is I dont have a lot of tools after I knock someone down. All I know how to do is meatys basically. I’m asking what else I can do other than meatys when fighting someone who wake up DPs. Other than just blocking, I mean.
Reversals and counter-hits are actually different! You can have one without the other. /semantics
Another options besides just blocking, is simply resuming footies after they get up. Instead of relying on meaties, wait until they are fully back up. I know that seems stupid, but you can’t vary your timing with that so a wake up dp will either be blocked or whiffed, and if they don’t dp, you are back applying pressure.
I’m not sure who you play with (I must have missed it if you posted it) but meaty projectiles can definitely be useful as well.
I play with Ryu.
So just to recap things I should learn from this thread:
Meatys are pointless in SF4
Never meaty a Shoto
Play footsies instead of rushing down if you’re expecting wakeup srks
I just have a few more questions: So I pull off the meaty fireball and he blocks it, what is the advantage of this for me? What am I able to do because he has to block my fireball the second he wakes up? And finally, are cross ups still safe against someone who does wakeup srks?
poke him if you’re at a distance. if you meaty projectile him upclose and he cr. blocks, do some low jabs then overhead or tick throw.
If you time the meaty fireball to hit deep enough (like he has to block it just as it finishes passing through him), you get way better frame advantage than when they’re hit by a fireball normally. In ST this was extreme enough that you could actually throw multiple fireballs that they couldn’t jump out of if you had them cornered at the right distance. In SFIV it’s generally not that good but it still lets you move around and do stuff while they’re stuck in blockstun, and from the right range you can really lock them down if they want to avoid chip damage (eg. they have a sliver of health, you do a fireball from just outside Shoryuken range, and they now either eat the chip damage or Shoryuken through it and get hit on the way down-don’t do it against Ultras with reach though)
Since we’re on the subject, what’s the best way to punish a blocked SRK? I try to hit them with the ultra on the way down but, I can’t excecute it realiably enough to be able to get the timing right.
Meaties are far from pointless. Meaties simply can’t be thrown out, willy-nilly. Example:
Lets say you’re Ryu, and your opponent is Ken.
You knock Ken down. You close in for a followup, you decide to try a combo that starts meaty. Ken sees this coming, and wakeup SRKs. Now he’s got a knockdown - but he’s also got some mental conditioning. He now thinks that if you close in on wakeup, your tactic is going to be to try a combo.
Later in the fight, you turn it back around and get a knockdown. Now you close in, stutter-step a bit, but then several frames before he can move, you get in nice and close - like you mistimed his wakeup. Only now, you’re holding down and back. Ken tried to SRK, and catches nothing but block - now you’ve got plenty of time to set up the juggle of your choice. (A lk.Tatsu, or EX Tatsu are decent choices - there may be better, but I don’t play shotos). Also note that most reversal attacks have several frames of recovery time AFTER the landing - Sagat’s Tiger Uppercut comes to mind - meaning you can start a ground combo and they’ll be unable to block. However, SRKs have little (1 frame? 2 frames? Anyone got that data?) of time where you can start a ground combo before they can recover.
So, your followup scores you another knockdown. Now you’ve got Ken on the ropes. What are you going to do now? He has no idea. You close in - Ken wakesup and…does nothing. Why? Because it’s the safe move - there’s only one wakeup option you have that will beat a crouching block…which just happens to be exactly what you do - A throw. (well, you have an overhead, too - but it loses to standing block and the throw scores you a knockdown without having to combo)
Another knockdown for you. Now you close in, and Ken feels like your reading his mind - he’s gotta get out of dodge! Trade some fireballs and get the pace back on his terms. So he does jump back mk - which will beat your throw, you blocking, and is likely to trade with an SRK. EXCEPT, this time you do a meaty cr.mk xx EX hado. Boom, another knockdown.
It’s a concept called Yomi, and it’s what makes all these mixup games possible. Rock, Paper, Scissors, Psychology.
Blocking is the key block=punish=win
Meaties are not pointless in SFIV. There’s just much more risk associated with them than in previous games. That’s why punishing your opponent for reckless reversals is extremely important. Also remember there are other situations besides wakeup where meaties can be used, eg. when they’re landing from an aerial attack or after you’ve reset them.
Best punish with Ryu depends on the position on screen, how far you are from them and how much meter you have. I usually do f.hp followed by either DP FADC Ultra midscreen (you can slip in another cr.hp if you’re good with linking), or cr.hp xx EX Tatsu -> Ultra if they’re in the corner. If I’m at max distance and they’re close to death I sometimes do cr.mk xx EX Hado FADC Ultra.
The stronger your punish gets the more Ken get in a low reward-high risk situation ( unless ken has meter and can link ultra or super on command)
Best punish with Ryu wihout metter are :
-Solar plexus, Chp xx Srk : 348 damage
-Cmp, Chp xx Srk: 298 damage
Those are very hard and before you get them down you can use the easy bread and butter:
-Solar plexus xx Srk: 280 damage
-Chp xx Srk : 260 damage
Now this was if Ken wake up with the stronger version of his Shoryuken ( does 160 damage)
If he likes to wake up with a medium or low punch Shoryuken ( does 160 and 120 damge respectively)
it may change the situation in 2 ways:
1: you may not have time or spacing to use the punish above. Usually when dont have time for Solar Plexus
you can go Chp xx Srk or if he is a little too far: c.mk xx tatsu ( 190 damage )
2: His low and medium comes out in 4 frames , so Ken can be safejump after an unteckable knockdown.
maining Dan has taught me alot about the other shoto’s. my revelation came in form of a hilarious dan video on youtube in which I immediately stopped using Akuma and switched to Dan. It makes me play ten times smarter now that I don’t have as many options, but I think the video is a blessing to anyone that plays and can be taken as solid advice for dealing with a lot of wakeup’s especially the ken srk wakeup. I just do the close in, taunt…backdash away from the srk, and then punish the hell out of it.
[media=youtube]MRHLKMxlhh0[/media] haha would probably help if I put down the video I’m gushing over.
I was just watching that. It gave me a whole new respect for Dan.
block and punish(you already know this). and then he will stop doing wake up uppercut after losing enough matches. then you can start working on opponent wake up mix up
if he doesnt stop, well find a new opponent cuz that fool refuses to learn
A good player knows how to bait reversals. Right before they wake up do a move that you would usually do as a meaty (say, a low short). Now Ken will see that low short and reversal, but you timed it so that you recovered in time to block. Whiffing pokes and moving back and forth are great ways to convince your opponent to wake up DP. Conversely, sometimes the least obvious throw setups are when you crouchblock, whiff a cr.lp, wait until he wakes up, and then throw.
Another way to deal with reversals safely is to do walk back cr.mk. You can time it so that you block a reversal. They can do a wakeup cr.mk to beat you but that’s obviously risky for Ken to push buttons as soon as he wakes up.
Another great way to deal with wakeup shoryuken is to do a DP FADC late on their wakeup. If they reversal you hit them out of their own DP (unless they did EX) and get an ultra combo. On block it’s still safe.
The risk/reward for wakeup DP is totally in your favor (if you knocked him down) unless they want to use bars to cancel the reversal. Even then you can space yourself so that they’re too far to FADC but you can still do a meaty cr.mk.
The trick is to make it impossible for your opponent to know what you want to do. Do random stuff that makes no sense when he’s knocked down, like lk tatsu over his body, whiff a lp shoryu, whiff an overhead, etcetera. Make sure they’re thinking about something besides your real decision.
Seriously reversals are very bad in SF4 compared to other SF games because you can be punished for it for half life with an easy-ass combo. But really the simple answer is block and punish. Thank your opponent for the free ultra.
Sakura’s j.fp either trades or stuffs kens fp srk. on wakeup too.
It’s all been said, but basically unless you give him a reason to fear wakeup uppercut, they won’t ever have a need not to do it. Once you block/punish a few times, and he starts second guessing himself, then you can start with the meaties/tick throw/mixups. Yomi indeed.
Also, if you dont want to block, you can try back dash to bait wakeup reversals using the invincible frames, it works on everything except like kens EX SRK if you space it right