But the question is, is this for every single hit now (which makes it worse than DOA4) or only for critical state?
So far that I can tell, you can only hold in Critical State, and the frequency in which you are put into CS has been severely diminished from that of Dead or Alive Dimensions and Dead or Alive 4.
You also don’t have to play the threshold game that was so prevalent in those two games, as they have returned attacks that give normal hit launchers.
I’ll be taking it to an offline gathering tomorrow to finally be able to test some things out with it. I know that if you play the demo it “feels” like holds are more easily punishable, but some hold damage still feels too much even for a hi-counter blow.
One thing that I will always complain about for this demo is that they’ve made Busa a grappler, while maintaining his striker game, AND he also could be considered a “holder” class as he’s the only one in the demo with advanced holds outside of the mid punch/kick that can do a lot of damage - about 30% on hi-counter with normal life.
Oh, and they added 30 points of life to the lifemeter, regardless of life setting.
The special edition of Ninja Gaiden has the “best” demo.
It doesn’t matter how small you make the window.
When you are stunned, there is only a limited amount of time your enemy can hit you. Even with a 10 frame window it is incredibly easy to hit the mark when your opponent only has around 15 frames to do something. Counters should stay in the game, just not in hit stun. There are tons of other things that set it apart from tekken. The level design, controls, movement, art style, environmental damage and impact physics are completely alien to each other. String timing is far wider and more accessible in DOA, and pretty much universally delayable.
Finally, I don’t play Tekken regularly. I won’t play Tekken if im given ANY other choice. Yet I would play DOA and probably nothing else if it was without holds in hitstun. There is enough different between the two games that I would go from one absolute extreme to the other. So to hell with counters in stun, even if they are what “Define” DOA to some people. It’s a shitty definition and it should burn. Why keep making the same horrible mistake over and over again just because its what you’ve come to know it by?
For future reference – I say this with certainty. Still, note that despite my not wanting to play tekken, it is currently a vastly superior game for competitive play and I am under no delusion otherwise. I would like to see DOA reach that level of competition, but as it is currently, it cannot.
They removed the critical state pop-up, so who can tell anymore how much is, or is not affected?
Easier to just nuke the whole critical state system from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
Are you for real? You can’t perform holds during juggles so that makes launchers even better by default than in Tekken!
I don’t think you “understand” the game (not trying to be a jerk or anything), and i know it’s your game of choice. Your argument is very similar to the people who say that you shouldn’t have absolute guard in SF4 (like how sf3 doesn’t have it), but people don’t understand why it’s there. The reason strings have such a wide window IS because of the stun system. If you got rid of the stun system, then there is NO reason to have strings with such large windows since you’ll always be hit/thrown out of them. The large window is there to bait counters, counters are there to get you out of those deep stuns, the stuns are there for the mix up game.
Hopefully someone else chimes in here to explain, because i think you as well as many others are very mislead. You’re gauging your experience mostly from DOA4, which IMO had the worst stun system of all the games. Every other hit put you in some sort of stun which turned the whole match into a guessing game (which is why most players don’t like the game). A few years ago me and Slide were preaching this on DOAC, but back then many of the DOA players didn’t have much knowledge of how fighting games worked to understand what we were saying. The game only needs a few changes to make it truly competitive.
I think what Rikuto is trying to say is that hold during “stun need to be removed,” not remove the “stun system.”
He’s already started a lengthy discussion on it over at FreeStepDodge.
He says in his post that they should remove the stun system (critical state).
But that does not make any sense, when you look at the overall design of the game. Many people are too short sighted and only look at certain aspects, you have to look at how it affects the overall game system. Imagine playing the game without being able to counter out of stun. You have to counter out of stun for the game to be played properly. Without the ability to counter out of stun, the game is like playing SF where you get dizzied off of one hit and combo’d for free. Imagine having that happen 3-4 times throughout the match.
Just from watching the trailer, you can see they’ve already toned down on the number of moves that throw you into stun, which is a huge step in the right direction. All they really need to do is decrease the active window for counters and increase the penalty for low countering out of stun.
If the point is to be able to get out of long damaging combos, then there are other ways of doing that (proration, etc.) that don’t reward the defending player as much. Personally, my opinion is that they should just go the GG/BB route and limit the number of holds out of stun you can do in a match.
And speaking of getting dizzies of one hit and getting combo’d for free, that sounds almost like ST. Granted ST has a higher execution requirement for this, but at the same time it (and the Marvel games) shows that a game with heavy ToD isn’t competitively viable.
ST isn’t one hit dizzy outside of a few instances, and even then, it takes a lot to be able to land those hits. It’s definitely not the same.
Again i’m not being a jerk so don’t take my comment that way, but i don’t think you really understand how the game works either. With how the game is designed, limiting the number of counters you can do out of stun would not make sense either. You have to think of the overall system, not just one aspect.
I saw your posts in that thread, you’re the same guy who cried about how combo breakers in MK9 are unfair, despite them requiring meter. I mentioned the game being like Tekken in the sense that the counter during stun causes people to have to play unpredictably, otherwise it ends up like Tekken, where each character has like 100 moves but only 10 or so get used because there’s no reason to use anything else. ie, the game turns into “I’ll just find out the best combo in the game and use only that and nothing else because why should I”. No thanks. Like I said, you can go play Tekken or any other fighter if you want that kind of system, some of us like being able to actually not have to be stuck watching someone do the same combo over and over again that they learned via some Desk video.
Also proration doesn’t solve anything, grats, now the game can be like Blazblue where you can watch someone hit you like 40 times and do no damage, sure is fun and good game design. Only people I ever seen get so anal over the hold system were people who want every fighting game to be pretty much the same old shit, and just can’t stand it when a game actually doesn’t allow you to just memorize “the best combo” and use only that. DOA 4 stun/hold system sucked, DOA3s was fine and needs to go back to that, not remove it altogether. What purpose would that serve? You say it’s to make the game more competitive so people would play it, as if anyone here gives a shit, people bashing the game will STILL bash it and find some excuse not to play it, so why fuck with the gameplay that way? To appease some people who already made up their minds about the game? VF and KoF are games where the developer tried so hard to appease tourney player standards, and they get shat on and discarded so people can go play games they hate and claim are shitty. So yeah, I’d rather Hayashi just go back to DOA3 standards, than try to drastically change the gameplay to satisfy like 10 people on SRK who won’t play the game anyway unless there’s a capcom logo on the front.
Never did say I had in depth knowledge of the system. All I did was take previous knowledge of games I am familiar with and try to apply it.
And in any case, from an abstract point of view, holds out of stun are still a bad mechanic since they punish the attacker for getting in. Which is why, in games with similar “get of me” mechanics, they’re always limited somehow. Outside of KI, the only other game I know with a seemingly unlimited burst mechanic is SkullGirls, however, that game still has the condition that your opponent has to be doing an infinite (governed by very specific rules that good players can fudge) on you before you can burst.
That’s damage scaling not hitstun proration. The latter means that you naturally drop out of combos after a certain number of hits.
And competitive play is about finding the best, most optimized shit. It’s a system/concept that rewards those players who take the time off to actually learn the game To go the opposite way leads to games that reward randomness over knowledge and skill.
I agree that abstractly they’re a bad idea, but if you know how the game works, then you’ll see why it actually isn’t a bad idea. That’s where are a lot of misunderstanding about the game comes from, especially from people who’ve never really played it or took the time to understand the system. I can totally see why people would think countering out of stun is stupid. But that’s not what makes it dumb, the problem stems from counters having huge active frames.
Then why should any 3d fighter ever make so many moves for characters, why not just ask tourney players what the best moves were in the previous game and put them in and axe the rest? May as well, sounds like a waste of development resources to design these long ass movesets when only a few of the moves are even worth using.
Plus last I checked competitive play also meant adapting to different situations, meaning if the game calls for someone to have to try and fight more unpredictable instead of relying on one move/combo, then they need to “step their game up” instead of demanding the game get changed for not catering to them. Find it real funny how people on this site have no problem with retarded infinites in SFxTekken that are braindead easy to do, using the defense “it’s in the game, get used to it and play to win”, but counters in DOA makes them cry about how it’s so unfair and the developer needs to remove it now or they won’t play because it makes the game unfair for them. Same kind of people who bash MK9 for having bugs and glitches, calling it a shit garbage game, yet slobber all over SFxTekken and try to defend all the godawful glitches in that shit. This community is a fucking joke.
DOA4 was garbage, should I give this one a shot? Has anyone tried the demo yet?
Soul Calibur V. Best SC in years and arguably the most competitive that the game has ever been and guess what. The movesets have been pared down to what works.
That said, one of the reasons for 3D fighters extensive movelists is due to the emergent nature of fighting games. You cannot fully dictate how a character will be played or what moves will be good. All you can realistically do is give players options and see where they run with those.
Funny then that the guy proposing that holds out of stun be removed isn’t just from SRK, but is a regular over at FreeStepDodge, aka the site for competitive DOA after all the other sites imploded and went casual.
Huge active frames or Huge damage from those active frames. either-or.
I personally would like to see how the system would play out if stuns were only struggle-able and not hold-able. I’m not saying if that is good or bad, just that it’d be nice to see how it would play out if you could only hold before being put in critical state, and otherwise you would need to struggle to get out of critical state. You still have a way to “escape” crit but not in an ‘instant-catch all’ way.
Even then, the fact they brought back normal hit launchers is a HUGE plus.
Yes, and yes.
Now, that would be something I’d like to see, as well. I wonder if there’s a way that Shimbori could make it work, if he was even open to the suggestion.
But hey, at least it looks like they’ve listened to you when it came to that controller config among possibly others. That’s something, at least…
There’s a very simple solution to hold’s out of stun; a solution you would come across if you look between the see-saw balance of offense and defense; risk and reward/greed.
-I think, that if the attacker lands a good stun, he/she should be rewarded; so the defender should not be able hold out of that initial stun. The attacker then has the guaranteed options/follow-up of going for a launcher/natural combo etc (not a power blow however).
-See, if the attacker then wants to get greedy, throw away his guaranteed damage because he/she wants to go for more (i.e increasing the stun threshold), an element of risk must be added. So I think the defender (for example) should then be able to hold out of the 2nd stun.
-So, if the attacker STILL guesses right he/she should then be rewarded again for taking that big risk and reading/guessing correctly; meaning that the 3rd stun should not be able to be held out of, granting greater reward than the first stun as now you can get higher launchers/damage and even a Power Blow like we saw in the Akira trailer.
The current problem is that holding out of stuns from the get-go and every step of the way does not reward a good offense; but not being able to hold at all rewards offense way too much. We don’t want to make the game linear, and we don’t want to remove guesses completely. The stun system is good because it is a branch of gameplay that comes after spacing/zoning; a new branch of gameplay/mini-game that comes after a hit is landed.
With a good fighting game, each scenario arrived should present it’s own depth and branch of gameplay. Which is why I would agree with Caliagent in saying Combo Breakers in MK9 are rubbish. There are no real set of options when it comes to Combo Breakers as you can’t bait them; which means that you can’t do anything about it other than NOT attack or not combo etc. You have to hit them to trigger it which makes it one-sided; if you want them to waste it you have to get hit. Bursts in Guilty Gear on the other hand, present a deep branch of gameplay. They can be baited in a multitude of ways; punished in a multitude of ways; executed successfuly in a multitude of ways etc.
And I agree with Cali once again when he says: "The game only needs a few changes to make it truly competitive."
This is very true; I think that people give DOA less credit than it deserves, maybe because of DOA4. DOA has a system with real good potential imo; it just needs the right tweaks/tunings and fleshing out and it will be a really great game. It just needs to be able to grow in the right direction; not completely altered.
It would be interesting to see although, I think the “no counter out of stun” thing would only work if they got rid of the deep stuns from doa4. Overall, i don’t think it would be a good idea.
I like this idea, but i would only limit it to certain types of stun. The game really only needs really minor changes.