I didn’t drop Blackheart. I can’t. I’m just trying to warn people not to use him.
When you turn to the dark side forever will it dominate your destiny!
oh okay! 
the way it sounded like, it seemed like you drop him. quite a few people in my area use him but half of them use him primaryly as assist. and the other half are just throwing fierce kick goblins, nor really utilizing the rest of his arsenal.
my blackheart really has no problems with sentinel nor cable, and im not really worried about magneto… but i tend to have issues with storm. 
Storm’s a problem because BH takes more than normal chip from hail storm for no reason at all, it seems. Not even crouching will save you. So all Storm really has to do is horizontal run and watch for inferno.
BH’s worst matchup in the top tier is Cable, but I can make that happen a lot through sheer experience.
is there amyway to prevent…Inferno xx HOD…AHVB
I decided to Unify the first 2 posts Stiltman made in How To Tell If Your Blackheart Sucks. Due to the size of these 2 posts a disclaimer is warranted.
WARNING: MASSIVE POST ALERT
Ill post the link to the thread below.
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/thread44304.php
Litmus in Bold
Solutions in normal
*Originally posted by StiltMan *
**This thread might get mistaken for a troll, but I think that in discussing what BH is really capable of any more, there are so many bad habits that BHs around the country have gotten into that I would tend to say that most of them suck. So here’s a simple litmus test to determine whether or not your BH sucks.
-
Do you think sj. rh and inferno/HOD are BH’s two main moves? (If you answer “yes” in whole or in part, your BH sucks.) **
-
My main moves I use with BH are j. fierce (usually supplemented with Sent-Y), sj. jab, and his short both in the air and standing and crouching on the ground. The most common times I use sj. rh at all is after a sj. jab/strong counterattacking a rush char going over the top, or if I know the opposing char is in some way commited to staying below me (which actually is a superset of the first case). I only use inferno/HOD if I know it’s going to hit or occasionally in endgame situations to chip. I never use it as a general chipping weapon unless I’ve got Doom behind BH and I’ve got an opponent pinned between the rocks and the corner wall.**
-
Are you aware that BH’s tail represents one of the quickest range pokes in the game? (If you answer “no”, your BH sucks.)**
-
Just so you know… BH’s st. short (the tail) reaches just a little shy of half the screen away. Probably right around 40-45%. His cr. short is not much shorter. His air short is a little less reaching than his air jab, so the main reason I’ll use the short is if I’ve got an opponent below me. But either way, BH’s tail has sick, sick range for the amount of speed it has, better than basically any quick poke this side of Dhalsim and with a lot more damage potential from combos. You can literally block a launcher from most chars and retaliate with pokes into your AAA of choice into inferno/HOD, infinite, and/or DHC. **
-
Do most characters usually survive your first solid hit with BH? (If you answer “yes”, then your BH probably sucks… I know of at least two team schemes where BH should be killing people on the first solid hit, with only a very few exceptions. BH/Storm is arguably an exception that can get you out of jail here.)**
-
If you are playing BH/Cable/Cyclops, anything that leads to a Cyclops hit (whether it’s juggling someone who’s jumped into demons, retaliating for a poke, them running into Cyclops cold, or whatever) should lead to an infinite which you then finish off by tagging in Cable on the bouncing character, and from there you shoot them the rest of the way to death. If you are playing BH/Sentinel/Commando, there are numerous ways to DHC HOD (with or without inferno) into HSF, most of which will be fatal in most practical cases. If you’ve got BH/Storm/something and set up an inferno/HOD there, you can DHC to hail as well… this won’t kill anybody without a significant amount of extra damage additionally inflicted before or after it, but it’s useful enough and simpler to execute than DHCs to HSF or infinites into Cable tags, so it can be forgiven. **
-
Do you super jump to throw random demons a lot? (If you answer “yes”, your BH sucks. The only matchup where this is really a good idea is against another BH.)**
-
Don’t do this unless you know your opponent can’t either go under you or up with you or whatever. I don’t even super jump for offense at all except on Sentinel or Cable, and even then I’m doing it in cases where I know they’ll have a reason not to go up with me. About the only char I’ll do any kind of half-random sj. rh on is another BH.**
-
Do you have a serious application for air judgment day against top tier chars? (If you answer “no”, your BH sucks.)**
-
If you get over the top of either Cable or Sentinel doing their respective horizontal supers, probably on one of your assists, air judgment day is a lot more useful than it looks like. It’s also very easy to DHC into hail, HSF, or whatever. **
-
Do you play BH on a team where he’s got a serious DHC to work with? (If you answer “no”, your BH sucks unless it’s because the team has Cable on it, in which case you get a “get out of jail free” card unless you answered “yes” to question 3.)**
-
Serious DHCs here can be anything from BH/Sent-A inferno/HOD DHC plasma storm (Sentinel will have enough time to both assist and DHC, BH/IM-or-Cyclops/Sentinel inferno/HOD DHC proton cannon/MOB DHC HSF (either one of which works… pretty easy to do), BH/Storm/Sentinel st. rh/drones/HOD DHC hail (credit to Viscant for this one), BH/Sent with any third char st. rh/drones/HOD DHC HSF (variant on Viscant’s combo, and yeah, the HSF does work if you time it so that Sentinel has enough time to get out on the assist and then come back in on the DHC) or whatever. If you can do the infinite into Cable tag off of BH/Cyclops (which fills a non-DHC condition of question 3) you needn’t worry about this question… BH still can kill and the means are different than a DHC. I don’t really care for BH/Cable/Cyclops myself because I think BH has more use for a projectile assist than he does for Cable behind him for most matchups. It might help him against an opposing Cable some, but I think stuff like drones or rocks helps him against the rush more than a counter-AHVB will help him against another Cable**
-
Does your BH get rushed down for giggles? (If you answer “yes”, your BH sucks.) **
-
With j. fierce, drones, and Commando around, BH should rarely, if ever, worry about getting rushed. With Cyclops instead of drones and Commando it’s potentially hard to rush him down but I’d still prefer having Sentinel back there, especially since BH/Cable/Cyclops suffers the same snapback worries as Team Scrub does against Magneto, whereas BH/Sent/Commando doesn’t. (read: free DHC) Getting your assist char snapped in with no safe way to get out so that he gets rushed down is just as bad as getting your BH rushed down for purposes of this question. **
-
Do you know at least two or three different ways to do serious damage to Cable, without getting shot in retaliation? (If you answer “no”, your BH sucks.) **
-
Pick a DHC from the list in question #6, or the infinite into Cable tag into blow them the hell away… or don’t tag Cable and just do the infinite, maybe reset it. If you don’t want to DHC, take an assist that hits a char up to about chest level on BH and do judgment day. No inferno. I know for a fact that Sent-A sets this up fine. It’s possible that Psylocke might. st. rh into Sent-Y into judgment day will also work without needing a DHC. There’s also hitting into Cyclops and do a single sj. rh as though you were going to start the infinite, but instead airdash, land next to where Cable is bouncing by your head, and do inferno/armageddon. The non-DHC, non-infinite-into-tag combos all do about 50% damage anywhere on the screen (except for the st. rh/drones/JD one, which is more like 60-70%), and all of them are perfectly Cable-safe to hit people with.
There are a few other trade secrets here that I’m keeping close to the vest, but even this much is still a lot more BH knowledge than most people know. There are a lot more DHC possibilities out there (I haven’t even given out the one that I use most often myself) and a few other things BH can do, some of which I know and I’m keeping secret and a number that I may not even have discovered yet myself.
Don’t feel bad if you blew chunks on the test. It’s my personal opinion that BH is considered so bad these days because nobody really knows any of this stuff… i.e. the BHs people are judging by are on the wrong side of most or all of these litmus test questions.
It is now Wednesday, August 4, 2k4. Much has changed in MvC2. I have a question or 2.
1]How much has changed in BH play that I need to be aware of between “How to tell if your Blackheart Sucks” and now? How much is outdated? How much isn’t?
2]What patterns [exact patterns] interfere with Rushdown the best?
3]Who are the best people to watch video of?
Also, what stuff did you hold out on that you didn’t want to say then that you’re willing to say now Stiltman?
To stop the rush, you stay on the move. Figure out the angles they want to hit you from and keep them out of there. Get yourself a team, ideally, with a good horizontal and good vertical help to protect both from a distance and from directly over his head, both of which he’s a bit weak on by himself. This is one reason why, IMO, Watts is still probably the best BH team.
The main thing I didn’t say in the early parts of that thread, that I did reveal later, is my BH/Sent/Commando DHC from BH to Sentinel. Hit into Commando, throw the inferno at the last possible moment before they recover from Commando, and just as they’re dropping below the scoreboards (the exact height differs between chars) DHC to HSF. At three meters (or two in the corner before unblockable) it does about 120-130 damage. Read: if you’ve hit a character with even a random Commando shot or something before you hit this combo (and you probably will), then it’s effectively fatal. You can hit it off of random pokes, you can hit it off of air-to-air demon hits, you can hit it off of j. fierce and calling Commando, etc… quite a few practical ways to get it off of just about any sort of half decent BH hit.
This combo, if you learn how to use Sentinel and learn the positioning for BH, changes a lot of matchups. The biggest one that it changes is Cable. BH has to do a lot of desperate stuff that usually means he gets killed to do much of anything on Cable without this combo. With it, he only really needs to patiently work the angles and get in one hit, and Cable dies… which completely changes around the dynamic of that matchup.
Frankly, I think that if BH uses this effectively and doesn’t take needless risks, he has the advantage on Cable when he’s in front of Watts. I realize that’s heresy, but if you haven’t employed this combo effectively, you simply don’t have a perspective on how much this changes fights… Portland area Cable players who play against my BH avoid that matchup like the plague, because they rarely win it. If you’ve seen the 2/13 matchup between me and Drew-Dub, I don’t even have the DHC handy most of the time I’ve got BH on point against his Cable, and I still pretty much pounded him cold. Now imagine how that would go when BH’s going to kill someone in one hit.
That DHC is sweet. I remember you mentioning it. The main reason you mentioned it is to save face vs Mixup when you mentioned it’s exhistence perking his curiousity. Thanks for the additional detail on the timing.
I agree with you on the fact that it changes the match. For me it’s now 45/55 instead of 20/80. Now that I don’t have to force things as much and can be patient, it’ll probably get to 60/40 favoring me.
My questions are as follows…
1]is is there anything other than the DHC that you wanted to reveal that you were reluctant to reveal that you’d like to reveal here?
2]If there is anything you’re scared to reveal that can help my game that you can give me [pm if necessary, I’ll keep it secret]
3]How can I get video of you playing? I can’t use Direct Connect due to hard drive capacity.
I still can’t do that combo very accurately.
Watts is the best team, but I still think it gets owned by any team with Cable in the middle. The reason is, if the first character is anyone other than Sentinel and the other person is patient and doesn’t try to do too much, even if you LAND the combo you’re going to have to fight Cable next with Sentinel and a weakened Blackheart. Since Cable probably has lots of meter at this point, no one wants to be there. It’s too much work.
Now if SENTINEL is the first character, you’re going to have to work your ass off. Team Scrub pretty much beats the crap out of Team Watts; even if you start Sentinel, there’s not much hope other than some really intense micromanagement. I’m not saying it’s IMPOSSIBLE, I’m just saying if you do pull it off, you’re going to have used a LOT of mental energy. If you’re going to win more than one match in a tournament with that, I guess your name is fucking Einstein or something.
What I’m trying to say is, I don’t think that combo changes matchups too much. But maybe I only say that because my Sentinel is awful right now.
With BH, What in your opinions are the 5 best ways to get away from a Magneto player in order off the start of the match?
Watts vs…
Mags-Sent-a
Mags-Sent
Mags-Tron
Mags-Psy
Mags-Doom
Against Mag/Psy the best option is almost always to crouch block and call Sentinel. This requires good eyes. Look for Magneto’s feet to leave the floor, and if he does, immediately hold up-back. In 90% of the situations, the drones will cover you even if you get hit.
If you’re fighting a Mag/Psy player that you are certain always goes for crossups, then holding up and tapping Jab while calling Commando is a good way for an easy hit.
Mag/Doom, if he calls Doom at the start the best thing to do usually is to take the hit, most Mag players don’t know what to do in that case. Of course, if you’re playing someone who can do the ROM anywhere anytime, it’s not a good idea.
Any other Mag setup, crouchblock and call Sentinel is the most effective strategy. Remember this - if the Mag is glitching low short to start, doing anything BUT crouchblock is a risk.
Watts vs. Scrub is not that bad of a fight if you are good enough with BH that you don’t care whether you have to fight Sentinel or Cable on point and if you know how to fight Cable with Sentinel. If either one of these conditions is not true, then you’re going to lose this fight for giggles. My personal preference for this fight is to start BH and let them start whoever they want. I’m more worried about it if they start Sentinel, because Sentinel’s screwy properties off of Commando hits takes away the DHC, so you have to do this one the hard way.
Because of this, I’ve actually been giving some thought to going back to my old BH/Sent/Cammy team. I’m a little leery of this, because BH and Sentinel will both miss Commando’s higher altitude control, but Cammy is a better defensive assist by far (if your opponent is relying on speed-based rushing to avoid Commando, Cammy will annihilate them), her ability to punish opposing assists isn’t much worse than Commando’s, BH’s DHC is one-size-fits all with her (i.e. Sentinel and Juggy will both get hit without having to be in the corner), and it also takes away a lot more real estate for opposing Sentinels to fly through. In my experience, she’s also a bit more useful in endgame situations than Commando is, because she can either run or rush depending on what the situation calls for. Most of the fast fly stuff you’d do with Commando is also possible with Cammy. However, Cammy’s got her shortcomings too (high altitude and only hitting one char at a time), so it’s not without tradeoffs. I’m not prepared to really recommend it until I’ve tinkered with it a bit.
Guile does a lot of the same things for BH but he’s not real good for assist punishing, he’s a lot worse off without an assist than Cammy is (read: worse for endgames), and he’s awful with Sentinel.
If you’re able to get the DHC down consistently, then Watts with BH starting resembles Storm/Sentinel, except that BH helps Sentinel way, way more than Storm does. Frankly, I would disregard most everything Dasrik says otherwise about it, because (a) by his own admission, his Sentinel sucks, so the DHC isn’t going to give him much that he won’t just give back with Sentinel later, and (b) because his Sentinel sucks, he hasn’t put the practice into the DHC because he knows his Sentinel’s just going to give the fight back to his opponent anyway. So, no offense, Ric, but you’re not a good test case for whether the DHC changes any fights or not. 
If Guile keeps momentum and a lead, Sentinel can’t do anything. I’ve seen it happen too many times to write it off as luck.
Anyway, disregarding me is fine, I still want to know how you’re going to relax fighting a Cable who’s loaded and antsy for a lead. Unless you have a REALLY REALLY good Sentinel who has perfect execution, can fast fly on a whim and keep track of unfly mode all the time (and no offense, Eric, but from what I hear that doesn’t apply to you), the pressure is probably going to get to you.
Well, let’s put it this way. One of us has a notorious turtling Sentinel that nobody who knows him likes to fall behind on because it’s going to be a long, slow, grinding fight where the person who’s behind is going to be bored to death the rest of the way, and once inspired one Drew-Dub to remark that this person does more things with Sentinel from half to full screen than anyone else they know. And the other of us… well, doesn’t have a Sentinel like that.
You tell me who’s who.
Thanks for the help Stiltman:cool:
All my friends officially hate Blackheart so much more :evil:
haha, so fun.
sammang’s magneto/bh/cyclops still dope. 1st at T5 championships.
I’m one of those people who believe that BH is still one of the most formidable characters when played right. Just this afternoon I matched up against one of the best players here in our place who used his Cable/Doom/Commando and Team Scrub against me. I managed to get 8 wins using Mag/BH/Sent-A team. Though Mags did most of the work, the tempest/Armaggedon DHC combo really caused lots of trouble for him and helped bail my Mags out of tough situations. My hard punch demons kept him from trying to jump in on me when his Cable tries to pressure me a bit. Sent/BH trap is still one of the best in the game IMHO… just try not to get predictable… be flexible in using the trap.
Dasrik or stilt:
Do you couple bh with doom much anymore? I’m wondering if you have any output about being effective with that duo.
I have dabbled with BH/Doom… and on paper it seems like it’s a great idea, but it’s got massive problems chasing people down because it has basically no horizontal reach. Sentinel gives him horizontal reach, which is one reason why Sent/BH works so well in both directions… Doom is, if anything, better than Sentinel for stopping the rush, but BH can do this on his own to a great degree, he doesn’t need the assists for that so much as he needs them to keep the area near the ground under control at longer distances.
OTOH, it’s possible that I’m just not paying BH/Doom right… one thing that Doom would allow BH is the freedom to throw demons at random more, because Doom would cover the ground below him better to keep him from getting crossed up silly by Magnetos going beneath than, say, Sentinel. This would allow BH to control the ground area better with his demons, somewhat, and perhaps even break rule number one of the “How to tell if your BH sucks” checklist with a greater degree of freedom than most other BH teams do. However, I don’t know that this would help him so much against the likes of Cable and Sentinel if they wanted to play mildly aggressive turtle tactics on him, and since BH and Doom together means you’d pretty much have to have either Commando or something similar as the third char, that more or less shoots most of BH’s big-damage weapons that he has with Sentinel as well that helps turn around some of those fights from other teams.
Is the extra chipping power and (to some degree) degree of freedom in going to the air worth more than the big damage? I’m not sure I’m a buyer.
Well, the main uses for doom in my case are the 4 following:
Stop rush
Chip
assist can lead to bh infinite(close)
double inferno(far)
Now, in your opinion, considering the pros you listed for sent’s assits compared to my doom’s, would sentinel provide a greater overall offense for BH? I would just like to know the big damage combos/moves that sentinel can provide(beside the good dhc), that would set him above doom.