Dasrik and StiltMan teach Blackheart

Classic Fighting Games Marvel VS Capcom 2
61

Well, go back through the archives (assuming it wasn’t purged) and have a look at my old thread entitled, “How To Tell If Your Blackheart Sucks”. It should be in this same strategy forum. If it’s not purged I’ll bump it when I get done with this post.

But one of the most important questions you should be answering in there is, “Do people usually survive the first good hit you get with BH on point?” Most teams that start BH, should have a combo that will usually kill someone on the first good hit. There are plenty of DHCs out there for BH that do similar kind of damage to Storm/Sent. (BH/Sent/Commando, BH/Storm/Sentinel, Sent/BH/Clops after a DHC from Sent to BH gets you BH/Clops/Sent order, etc.) There are one or two teams that allow you to infinite into either tag or DHC that can potentially kill, but there’s a rather major issue that they require: you have to put up with using Cyclops as your AAA. That makes a lot of those combos that look really really good on paper a lot less useful, because basically nobody with a brain is going to get hit much with Cyclops unless BH’s already been spotted a huge lead (which is why the only DHC example I gave above has BH in the middle after Sentinel has already presumably gotten one).

BH’s infinite is a waste of time. Don’t use it. There’s basically no situation where you can use it where you’re not better off doing something else that does a lot more damage for a lot less effort that can use an assist in back that is more valuable to BH than assists that set up infinites are.

62

thanx Dasrik and Stiltman. Just one question Stiltman,whats DHC again?

63

DHC= Delayed hyper cancel
as in Heart of Darkness cancelled into Hyper sentinel force :wink:

64

why does it always have to be a case of infinite or runaway with BH? How bout throwing in some strategies with rush down using different assist?
I’ve found that it’s way to easy to rush down others using assist like Sent-Y and Doom-B b/c one second they’re trying to get to you and the next they’re guarding a tricky string of attacks.

65

Infinite or runaway? I’m not even sure what that’s supposed to mean. If that’s some kind of statement that that’s BH’s only two options for how to fight, then it’s a false dichotomy. When I say the infinite isn’t worth it, I’m not saying that the only way to play him is to run… I’m saying that in every situation where you’re actually going to hit an infinite, there’s something else you could be doing that does a lot more damage for a lot less effort.

BH doesn’t rush, he zones. He has excellent reach and speed on his pokes (there are very few pokes that anyone else in the game has with his reach and speed that can lead to the kind of damage he can do), so when you’re up against a char that’s slower in point blank fights than you are, make them fear the tail and Commando. When they take a step back away from you, jump forward and take back the space they’re trying to create. Eventually that means that someone’s Cable is in the corner, and in the corner against BH/Commando is not a good place for Cable to be.

Those of you who have DirectConnect, go to goforbroke.no-ip.com (it should show up on your hub list, that or something similar to it… I’m at school as I’m typing this so I don’t have it in front of me) and get the match vids of me vs. Drew-Dub from the Seattle 2/13 tournament. In both vids you see a head-on fight between my BH and Drew’s Cable, and in both vids, his Cable comes out on the losing end. On paper, according to conventional wisdom, that’s flat out not supposed to happen. It’s a fairly good example of how to fight with BH in a zone-off, offensive game plan against a char that wants to play a turtle game against him. Even though I felt a little rusty in that tourney, the video’s probably about as good of footage as you’ll see of BH play as has been available in at least two or three years. So find that video and have a look at what I’m doing… it may not seem like I’m doing much, but that’s generally the point. With BH against Cable, you don’t want to do too much because that’s generally asking to get shot. So you stalk him, don’t let him create space, and when you’ve got him pinned down, don’t let him go anywhere.

Side note: I’d like to include Jaminis as an exception to that “at least two or three years”, but I just haven’t seen any video of him yet where his BH does anything more than pray that his opponent doesn’t beat on him too badly after Sentinel leaves point. I’m half-wondering if Mixup is mocking BH players by putting him up as an example of a good one, but I’m still holding out the benefit of the doubt.

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naw man that’s not what I was saying. I know better. I’m asking why all these infinite freaks think that they can only run away if they’re not doing the infinite.
And IMO bh isn’t ALL zoning. His superjumpxxdash can be a type of rush down if used right. Rush down doesn’t always involve tri-jumping.

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The sj-dash is something where, yeah, it’s a form of rush if you really wanted to call it that, but it sort of comes to a point where it’s a matter of where you draw the line between “rush” and “zone”. “Rush”, as I see it, is more offense-conscious, while “zone” is position-conscious. IMO, BH pretty much has to be position-conscious to get anywhere, so I tend to say he zones rather than rushes. He doesn’t really have the mobility to stay on the offensive outside of the corner, so the main thinking is to get them there and keep them there.

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Dasrik :

Obviously you don’t know who -=Blackheart2=- is :lol: it’s Samanang, the guy who raped jwong’s storm for free at nec2. He doesn’t speak English well, so take it easy :stuck_out_tongue:

Samnang, talk pas shit :lol:

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Ah. Well, I’ll be happy to prove my point at another venue.

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Don’t much care who the guy is or what someone else claims he did… his post is still quite retarded sounding. Besides, I’ve seen videos of Justin at that tourney, and let’s just say his Storm looked… quite a bit off from its usual level.

71

I’ve just read through the entire thread, and I am pleasantly enlightened.

I ( in my stupidity ) thought when this game came out it would never take off because of the abusable ( cable ) characters that at the time wer highly overpowering. And I quit ( many many years ago ) 2d fighting games, and moved to Tekken Tag Tournament.

REGARDLESS -

I have been ( cough forced cough ) to come back and play MvsC2 and I’m pleasantly suprised that blackheart has quite a following. And I have enjoyed a great deal reading that there are many strategies and obviously some good players. However from what I can read here he is used primarily as a ‘striker’ or a ‘catch’ for another character to come in and do most of the damage, where I am told here that he is a major keep away character, I guess I need blackheart vids, but how viable is it to create a team of larger characters IE Sent \ Jug \ Black. I am a very new player, learnig the ‘ropes’ so things like AAA etc I am still in the process of learning. COMPLETE N00B!! I mean, I can even fool around with Black \ Sent \ Spiral

:lame:

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when playing bh/storm/sent which assists should i use for storm and sent. i know stilt says to use expansion for storm but i dont like trying to combo with it cause its inconsistent. what about storm-y and sent-y? seems they both cover the vertical and horizontal aspects of the field but i dunno. any help would be appreciated, thanks.

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dasrik and vidness (i think thats his name) you guys helped me out or gave me an idea how to tackle my problem of BH/commando vs Sent/Doom. i appreciate that, however, i have another problem again which im hoping you can shed some insight how to tackle it…

my problem is BH/commando vs Sent/commando. the oppenent uses sent/commando in this manner… the match begins… he goes into fly mode, moves forward, attack a few times and his commando is tagged in sometime during those attacks, then cancels flight mode (space already taken, meaning hes trying to get you to the corner by slowly taking your space)… (this also happens in under a sec btw). then he sits there turtling, wating how youre going to act, if you super jump he tags in commando (even if commando is blocked). he takes a step forward, waits again (trying to lure me to tagging in commando so he can severely punish him). he hits you a couple of times (well once or twice to do some guard damage) then turtles again, again waiting for you to make a move so he can punish my assist with commando and add few more damage with sent.

when i try to throw a few pokes in, i get hit with commando, i try to super jump to re position my self and try to get better positioning he cuts off my space with commando. i tag in commando but doesnt hit since he’s turtling my commando gets severely punished by his sent and commando.

i think his main goal is to take care of my anti air assist which is commando and also to take away my zoning and mobility. how do you fight against such a turtling sentinel using black heart?

thanks in advance.

74

Yep, that’s what Sent does. He’s a monster. Once again, there’s no magical formula or secret moves that will allow your BH to consistently beat a good Sent/Com. You can’t really jump in on him, for he eats normals and demons for breakfast. I can’t count the # of times I’ve seen failed jump-in attempts on Sent due to assist+ s.hk.

Guard cancel is really important. You might want to practice it.

Once or twice during that matchup, I see assist baiting as an option. Throw your commando out to hit his, then be ready for inferno xx HOD upon his retaliation.

Also, I can see an air Judgement day (Sent counters with flight) DHC into Captain Sword catching him once or twice.

Simply put, Sent is going to control the horizontal. You can’t match up with him there. You are going to have to win this via the air, somehow. If he blocks air demons, you may try cr.lk x 2 + commando xx sj.hk to keep up the pressure, but I see your assist flying from his commando assist. This is NOT a good matchup.

-V

75

thanks for the input vid, yeah sent/commando is the biggest problem i have with BH/commando but when i play against such a pair up, i can tell that its not easy for him either. because he cant really control the air but i cant really control the ground either.

air judgement day is the super that i tend to use most of the time against him or it. oh yeah can you verify something for me (i cant really verify it since i dont have the game) well here goes…

(((whenever this scenario happens sentinel ALWAYS gets hit)))

i hyper jump with black heart and throw a HK goblin down at him and immediately follows it up with the air judgement day… sentinel however (who was able to evade the goblin and is safe from the judment day) follows me in the air and is in the same level/height as me fires a rocket punch towards me. i then immediately cancel the judgment day to ice man’s artic attack. and for some reason sentinel gets bombarded with the demons and then falls down and gets hit by the artic attack.

the only thing im thinking why this could be is that both he and i were all the way on top of the screen, and when iceman comes out with the artic attack the screen focuses on him (the screen drops) and so sentinel gets hit with the goblins and falls and gets hit with the artic attack.

whenever this scenario happens, sentinel always always gets hit, what im wondering is that. is the player just careless or he would really do get hit since when the screen focuses on iceman hes still on flight mode?

what do you think?

76

BH/Commando vs. Sentinel/Commando is about getting Sentinel to call out Commando first. You really can’t do much of anything until you bait the opponent out to call Mando first. From there, one-on-one BH outprioritizes Sentinel in every respect. Calling Commando first never works unless you can actually pin Sentinel down somehow, which rarely happens.

This isn’t a fight you should really try to take on, but if it happens, remember what I said.

77

alright ill remember that, thanks.

78

There’s a number of different ideas I tend to follow when fighting BH against Sentinel when both have Commando.

By and large, Dasrik’s remarks that you should only call Commando when they do are accurate. Unless I see a Sentinel just having a humongous droolfest for wanting to stay right over my head I don’t usually call Commando first much. Punishing their Commando bit by bit is always a plus.

And yes, Sentinel is going to control the horizontal most of the time, so you want to stay on the move and play the air and ground, wherever he isn’t. BH’s tail pokes, indeed, are basically going to win over everything Sentinel has at close range, so if you can keep on the move and keep close to him, and when you can’t keep close to him, keep the demons floating around so that he can’t keep at his favorite ranges to you if he’s not going to let you to yours over him, that can make BH vs. Sentinel a lot more even of a fight than a lot of people think.

From there, what you want to eventually work towards depends on what team they’ve got. Any Sentinel is usually going to be in the most trouble if BH can zone him into the corner, but in practice that doesn’t help much. In addition, the usual DHCs of death don’t usually work too well on Sentinel with BH/Sent/Commando (my favored combination). There’s sort of a substitute one where you can throw dark thunder/HOD and then DHC to HSF from that, and it often even works. However, Sentinel has to basically be grounded when first hit for the angle to work right, which means that the air-to-air demon setups for things don’t work worth a damn on Sentinel DHC-wise. On top of that, the HOD is random enough that sometimes they’ll get to roll out of the thing and the HSF whiffs. All of which is intensely irritating.

However, I’ve started toying around with a very different tactic, which just about makes me think that maybe Watts isn’t so bad against Team Scrub after all. If they start Cable on BH, neat… I usually like that better than grinding it out with Sentinel and then forcing my Sentinel to win the game on their Cable most of the time. (Starting Sentinel is not usually a good option in either case.) But if they start Sentinel on BH, that can often get annoying… but then it kind of dawns on me that BH doesn’t have a terribly unrealistic shot at doing what Magneto does to turn this matchup upside down. Specifically, snap the other lugnut the hell out. Works quite efficiently off of the same air-to-air demon hits that lead to deadly DHCs on everyone else, and it’s not out of the realm of difficulty on random hits, either.

No, BH often won’t be able to kill Commando that well, but in a BH/Commando vs. Sentinel/Commando fight where you’ve been doing your job at all well, their Commando is usually going to be hurting when they come in. So the end effect is usually that you whack down half or more of their Commando’s life in redbar and screw up their team order something awful for the rest of the game, which will usually come back to hurt them badly later on even if you don’t kill Commando now.

With something like Sent/Storm/Commando, it’s a little less feasible because Commando has a free out with a DHC to hail. However, if you’ve been doing your job against Sentinel that’s still a bunch of lifebar that you should be knocking out by snapping him in there, which is still worth it all on its own.

79

The problem I’ve had with fighting Sentinel is just that with the right assists he can easily control the match.

eg:

I fought a player who used Sent/BH/Capcom.

When I’m on the ground he’d use the Sent/BH trap. If I get near him capcom puts an end to that. If I try to stay mid range and throw demons, BH puts me back on the ground.

What can BH do in a situation like this? Is this one of those scenarios where he just can’t win?

80

There’s no such thing as a no-win scenario in MvC2 - unless you’re completely retarded and pick all the wrong assists and don’t have a good team going.

Fighting Sent/BH means waiting for holes, possibly using a bit of GC and knowing how the Inferno works. On a trappy Watts user like that, I usually try to get Doom/BH/Commando going since Doom/BH trap > Sent/BH trap. But if you’re going to do it with BH, you should use drones to run interference a lot, clear a space and superjump airdash to clear out of the trapping zone. Try to make Sentinel block drones, and then pin him for awhile.