Dark Phoenix is Broken, Literally

If you came here looking for another complaint about Dark Phoenix, you’re definitely in the wrong place. Instead, you have found quite the opposite!

Just a little tech I’ve decided to share… I wasn’t really sure it was “good enough” to be made widely known, so I’ve been holding onto it. But after using it multiple times now and being successful more times than not, I’ve decided that perhaps its worth sharing.

I’m hoping to get this nominated for an article… so I’ve written it as one. Please nominate it if you like it, and perhaps we can get it recognized on the front page :slight_smile:

Dark Phoenix is Broken… Literally

For quite some time now people have been griping about the character Dark Phoenix. Dark Phoenix has led to enough metaphorical tears to full up the oceans several times over. Personally, I’ve been sitting back laughing at this because my two primary teams have characters that are almost completely immune to her.

Allow me to explain.

The Dark Phoenix transformation has commonly been associated with saltiness, rage, instant death, and “cheap” wins. The only character perhaps even close to inspiring these kinds of reactions was the pre-patch Sentinel, and even he perhaps may pale in comparison. However, where most players chose to rage and complain, I chose to study the character. I had an edge in that I was already playing the characters “immune” to Phoenix since day 1, with a good understanding of them shortly thereafter. I began playing Phoenix later during the release week.

For alot of you this will be a “TL;DR” so here’s a video made entirely of his own accord by SRK forum user Cauldrath. It should give you a good general idea of what this concept is about. He also has a blog post offering a brief explanation of the video.

In order to be “immune” to Phoenix, you dont need X factor, speed, strength, and not necessarily even meter. You simply need Wesker, Taskmaster, or Magneto, reasonably consistent execution, and decent reaction time.

If my merely mentioning those names hasn’t clued you in, let me further elaborate.

The large chunk of Phoenix’s damage comes from the projectiles emitted by EVERY one of her normal attacks, excluding her supers. But this great strength from these projectiles make her even weaker in a sense than her normal form against Taskmaster, Magneto, and Wesker. Why? Because of their moves that seemingly nobody uses. Counters.

More specifically, it is their projectile counters that make them largely immune to Phoenix. This is because regardless of the distance Phoenix attacks from, on most of her attacks her flames hit PRIOR to the actual physical hit (if she’s in range to physically hit you at all). What this means is that where you’d normally need to preemptively guess which particular kind of attack she is about to perform (Overhead/High, Mid, or Low) in order to counter it, you no longer need to guess for most of her attacks because almost ALL of her normal attacks essentially become projectiles.

This means that the same counters which work on projectiles work on MANY of Phoenix’s regular attacks, thereby SEVERELY limiting her means of attacking you. Almost any attack Phoenix makes on the ground becomes essentially a projectile-based attack as far as the counters are concerned, meaning they are all countered by the same move!

It doesnt matter if she’s standing or crouching, on all of her ground moves (excluding command attacks and launcher) the projectile hits first, thereby making the “Fierce” counter (H) counter all of them.

In the case of Wesker, this leads to GUARANTEED death for Phoenix from a regular, meterless, x-factor-less combo.

In the case of Taskmaster, you need one meter to damage her (canceling counter into Legion Arrows), but the counter itself completely nullifies any damage you would have taken, and if she has taken at least ONE hit of any kind prior to the counter and super from Taskmaster, then the super will kill her if it deals full damage unless she has used healing field.

This also almost completely makes jab feathering an inviable attack against either of them due to the “Fierce” counter.

What about the FEW attacks it doesn’t counter (and there is literally only a few)? They’re ALL countered by the “Light” counter (L).

So here’s a list for reference of everything the the “Fierce” counter (H) stops:

Standing: L, M, H
Crouching: L, M, H
Air: L, M

ANY non-super excluding those is stopped by the “Light” counter (L), meaning:

Standing: S
Crouching: None
Air: H, S
Standing Command Attacks: -> M, -> H
Air Command Attacks: -> M, -> H

[LIST]
[]Counters for both characters are only 5-frame moves, making them viable for spamming or reaction purposes.
[
]When used repeatedly as opposed to on reaction, using the counter move may potentially tech throws or lead to a blocked attack depending on what point the attack is initiated during the input.
[*]If you have Magneto and 3 meters, you can cancel the counter into Gravity Squeeze for an instant kill on Phoenix.
[/LIST]

Of course, her special moves aren’t effected by feathering and thusly don’t change. All of her fireball projectiles are obviously countered by the “Fierce” counter, as are the traps.

It also becomes dangerous for Dark Phoenix to whiff ANY of her physical moves because the feathering they emit can be countered with the “Fierce” counter.

Also, for the players who don’t have the reaction times necessary to fully use this, even using it randomly will often result in success, especially if you can follow which particular kind of teleport your opponent uses. If it’s either of the ground teleports, 6 out of 7 of her normal attacks are all stopped by the same “H” counter. If it’s the air teleport, simply use the “L” counter instead, and you’ve got a chance at a free hit or killing Phoenix.

In addition, fighting Dark Phoenix is one of the few situations where it becomes BENEFICIAL to be in a corner. When using this technique, being in a corner means that any attack Dark Phoenix makes must be frontal (the direction of the counter) because her teleport does not allow her to teleport behind you. This makes mixup situations all but nearly impossible for her to pulloff without an assist, thereby eliminating the need to even change the direction of the input for the counter. Keep in mind that a whiffed counter attack by Wesker WILL take him out of the corner, so you need to be prepared to either get back into it, or swiftly move to the other.

Lastly, Magneto’s assist counter works BEAUTIFULLY on Phoenix… if you can get him out at just the right moment. This however is extremely risky as she could very well end up killing both of you. Using Magneto’s counter assist in combination with Wesker’s or Taskmasters “Light” counter does make it near impossible for Phoenix to attack you at all, due to the fact that Magneto’s assist will nullify the feathering of her attacks even if the Physical hit doesn’t reach. If the Physical hit does reach but the assist has ended, chances are it at LEAST destroyed the feathering projectiles; so by using the Light Counter there’s still a good chance you’ll catch Dark Phoenix. If you can find a way to alternate between the counters to cover one another, you could almost essentially end up with almost 360 degrees of protection ala Neji (if you don’t know, don’t ask :wink: ). Also, if Magneto’s counter does hit, meter becomes largely irrelevant to kill her as almost any air combo following Magneto’s counter assist (assuming the hit triggers it) will kill Phoenix. However, it is probably safer to just burn 1 meter if you have one to spare.

So I hope this is a stepping stone toward lessening the complaints about Dark Phoenix and stopping her. As you can see, more than half of her attacks end up able to be countered by one single move, and those that aren’t are all covered by one other.

Now if you’ll excuse me… I’ve got more labbing to do :slight_smile:

So is the idea to just stand still and spam H counter until it connects? Also how does this affect trap->teleport mixup situations? I would imagine there’s still a certain amount of randomness that can’t be completely countered, but this seems promising in that there is at least SOMETHING that MIGHT keep Wesker alive.

I havn’t been able to get into many situations to see all that greatly how it effects the trap-> teleport mixup, as I don’t really have anyone here who plays Phoenix well enough for me to test some of the trickier situations, but from what little I have seen, the counter seems to work even if they get behind you and attacks while you’re doing it some of the time.

With that said, it’s hard to follow the movement. For one, my primary testing arena for this has been between online and/or training mode. Online of course lags, so that test isn’t conclusive enough one way or another. And I’m the best Phoenix and Wesker player that I know of so it’s hard for me to self-test it. I can do the trap teleport mixup myself, but of course I know the timing of it so that may play a role in how effective it is for me. The closest thing I can get to the “randomness” of an offline environment is simply setting the cpu to fight me as Dark Phoenix and setting Wesker or Taskmaster to repeat the counter command, and vice versa.

Here’s what I can gather from that.

If Phoenix teleports in front of you, the counter loses no effectiveness.

If Phoenix teleports overhead, it depends on other variables. If she for example threw homing balls and they hit the direction you were facing when the counter started, depending on what point in her teleport shes in when the balls hit, the teleport hit on the counter will either align quickly enough to hit her or it’ll whiff to the location she was (carrying you away from her in the process). The CPU doesn’t tend to do teleport mixups of this nature, so it’s hard to say how this would function in a mixup situation.

If she teleports behind you, thats when you’d more than likely be better off learning to “see” the teleport coming and simply react to it. However from what I can gather, it seems as if you some odd reason the counter sometimes works and sometimes doesn’t if you’re “hit from behind.” Perhaps at an extremely close distance the projectile actually hits at the other side of you to which you countered, which triggers the counter and potentially gives you the chance to hit her. That’s about as good as I can test with what little ability I have to test this alone.

HOWEVER, one thing I forgot to mention in the article is that this technique becomes MUCH more effective in the corner, because it no longer matters which direction Phoenix teleports to. She CANNOT teleport behind you when your back is aligned to the corner, so all attacks essentially will come from the direction you’re countering. So if she prepares to go Dark Phoenix, it’s actually a GOOD idea in this case to align yourself in a corner to eliminate needing to worry about guessing which direction the teleport comes from.

if wesker is on your team and you have to fight dark phoenix you’re doing it wrong.

P gorath. Can you elaborate on that please?

Overall this seems like a textbook way to counter a phoenix with wesker although Ive have little luck doing this. I still find it funny how people dont just snap the bitch in and get a command throw to finish her off right there

I honestly don’t have a problem with dp because if she gets five bars and comes in. That just means to me that I didn’t do a better job at snapping her in

I believe you elaborated on that for him. he meant if you have Wesker kill her before she is DP. By doing a better jpb at snapping her in.

There was a video of the projectile countering thing a while ago on youtube already. They didn’t really explain how you could pretty much kill her off of it but they explain the usefulness of the counters. Purposely putting yourself in the corner against D.Phoenix is a smart strategy that my brother already employs against my Phoenix.

The fact that people are afraid of a character that only has 420k health (specifically D.Phoenix) is pretty sad. Capcom purposely designed her to be good because someone with only 420k health needs all they can have to stay competitive. I believe they meticulously balanced her to be defeated with the right strategy and mindset and I feel people will eventually put it together and stuff like this definitely helps.

I posted this on the Phoenix forums, but I guess I should have mentioned it in the Wesker and Taskmaster forums, too.

Shoryuken - Literally Countering Dark Phoenix

My little blog post on it: Playing with Games: Literally Countering Dark Phoenix

Glad you posted this. I was wondering how Magneto’s counter would work with her. I was going to ask someone else to do the testing for him though, as I know nothing of his character for this game to explain any kind of real strategies with him. His “L” Force Field however seems to be the fastest of the 3 chars.

Also, would you mind my putting a link to this video in the original post?

And I’ve already altered the original thread with what little I could figure to do with Magneto, but are there any sort of strategies you came up with for him? Also, since Magneto’s Force Field completely engulfs him, I assume this indeed offers 360 degrees of protection from her projectiles, but does the counter work properly on mixups?

Feel free to link the video.

As for Magneto, I don’t play him, either, I just tested it out and recorded the results of this specific instance. The Force Field destroys projectiles (like Charging Star, rather than using the projectile durability rules) and then counters both high and low attacks, so it pretty much works exactly the same against Dark Phoenix as regular Phoenix. Her TK Shots will explode and can hit him if the explosion outlasts the Force Field.

One problem with this is that it doesn’t stop her from doing her normal TK Shot :h: to Teleportation mix ups. If you try to counter the TK Shot, then you will be recovering from the counter when she does her normal attacks, causing you to get hit. (Wesker should be fine here, though, unless she staggers it too much.) If you block the TK Shot, you will be in block stun when she teleports, preventing you from countering her. So, to effectively do this you need to make sure you a TK Shot isn’t about to hit you when she teleports. Even if one is only enroute to you, it can hit you out of your hyper unless you connect a cinematic hyper like Wesker or Magneto’s level 3 before it hits, or if you are shooting in the direction of the shot with something that will destroy it, like Legion Arrows or Magnetic Shockwave. It will make it a much better idea for her to teleport behind you, though, so you can reduce the guessing game somewhat.

I wouldn’t say this is a hard counter to Phoenix, just something useful to know when fighting her.

Sounds pretty much in line with what I’ve seen. Stopping the teleport mixup seems to be a situation in which it’s better to pay attention and attempt to react as opposed to simply spamming hoping to land a counter, as I’ve found that (assuming your reactions are up to snuff), you have a good chance at initiating the counter move prior to Phoenix attacking after the teleport and potentially landing a hit. Or at least you can with Wesker. Seems to be much harder to with Taskmaster due to his much longer recovery times.

Oh yes, another great thing that I’ve read now about how epic Wesker is. I definitely am now considering him to run on my team as the point character, rather than Zero or Storm. Excellent stuff here.

EDIT: OK, well umm… I tried the whole Wesker thing, and uhh… Yeah, I got raped. I think maybe I should do a bit more lab work with him (and in general), before going back online for matches…

Couldn’t a good phoneix just cancel into super?

If she has a meter, potentially yes. With that said, running into a “good” Phoenix is extremely unlikely to begin with. Especially one good enough to actually cancel into super immediately after realizing she’s about to be countered. Personally the kind of online environment I run into wouldn’t even allow such a thing to occur with any frequency.

Also, in Wesker’s case, if you have 3 meters it’s a free lvl 3 kill if she does it close range. If it’s not close range, obviously you can just block it and punish her with Phantom Dance, or Legion Arrows in Taskmasters case. I don’t know enough about Magneto to explain his options for the situation.

i’m not really sure if this is the right thread for this but, a neat little bit of tech i picked up from some random wesker (i don’t even even play wesker)

wesker on point, kill dark phoenix in the air with air magic series. at midscreen or so you will land behind her as she transforms. use THC or just regular maximum wesker into DHC, and maximum wesker will cross them up. depending on your THC you may need to adjust, but the idea is simple.

so for say trish/wesker, 2 bar THC

2LMH>ghost butterfly>2MH>5s>j.MMH>phoenix dies>land>THC

now, if you did the 5s>j.MMH as fast as possible, you will not cross her up - the trish boomerang will hit before that. but if you stagger it a bit, you touch the ground sooner, and thus you cross her up with maximum wesker before trish boomerang hits. either way, this “mix up” would kill DPH if it lands

RAWR! First you haunt me on XBL, now you’re haunting my thread Feli! :stuck_out_tongue:

akuma raging demon

The phoenix Treatment
[media=youtube]SIDV7Nduh4k[/media]

I was curious about this myself so I tested it of my own accord, I had my wife use DP with X-Fac lvl 3 and just spam low L as you’ll see so many do, sometimes the counter would work, sometimes it would get stuffed, seemed to be about 50/50, the harder part was actually getting a counter to come out against the low L. After a while I just got tired of trying this because I already have skrull on my team so if I don’t feel like snapping I have a one-touch full kill on her anyway.