Dare to Compare: RJ45 Saturn vs. Tototek PS1->Saturn vs. Raphnet PS1->Saturn

I have a couple of concerns.

  1. Raphnet advertises their input lag of their PS1->Saturn adapter at 5 ms or less> It has a “mode select” that has many different arrangements, with 1 for Ascii PS1 stick arangement, and one for SF15 PS2 stick arrangement, and has a couple other arrangements. Knowing most games before the PS2 are either 60 FPS 240p or 30 FPS 480i 5 ms is anywhere from 1/4 of a frame to an 1/8 of a frame. Is that good?

  2. The Tototek I heard is less than 1 ms ping, but the problem is that the mapping is optimized for pads, and not fight sticks, has one setting and follows the “Sega Genesis emulated on PS3” standard. I tried twice to see if Tototek can custom map, both times I got refunded. This despite the fact that in 2011 Tomy, the owner of Tototek, said he can custom map according to his own forum. 4 ms of ping is not work meddling with the pcb, especially for a non-DIY guy like myself. If I can get a Pin-swap adapter when in discrete input form, then maybe.

3)I assume the RJ45 has 1 ms of ping or less. Especially if it foes straight to Saturn instead of RJ45->PS2->Saturn. Also assume the "defult mode is:

QP MP HP 3P
QK MK HK 3K

equals

X Y Z L
A B C R

  1. Would an “RCA Telephone operator switchboard” work to get a 25 pin->25 pin adapter, where you move RCA cables for a “user friendly” custom remapper without tinkering with anything except the RCAs? No messing with the Toodles screw in manually? (Just don’t let the voltage and ground pins be changeable.) Is it as easy as installing RCA females in an organized fashion on a switchboard, a male 25-pin and a female 25-pin, and any basic joystick modder can do it with no special knowledge other than current fight stick builder knowledge?

You’ve asked your #4 question before in another thread, and it was answered there too.
RCA connectors are just like any other connector: all it serves is connecting electrical wire, so of course they would “work”.

That being said, 25 RCA connectors will take up A LOT of space. Plus, RCA cables are 2 conductors per wire/plug, so unless you’re wiring individual ground signals for each button, it’s way overkill as well.
You’d probably be better off doing this via 0.100" pin headers on a PCB or perf board.

The reason why I want RCA is because

a) it’s more user friendly with almost no risk of breaking the connector,

b) If it ever does break, if it’s an RCA cable that no longer works, and that can be replaced easily without sending it to the shop and paying for labor and waiting. If it’s something else, I’ll need labor, but the most touched parts are the RCA M-M cables.

c) they can be in a formation whihc makes their funciotn evident. If I see a 4 points star arangemtn, I know that’s the cardinals of a joystick. When I see a 4x2 Box, I know that’s 8 action buttons.

d) The voltage and ground can be ran through separately where neither are selectable as an RCA hole input or output, but everything else is.

e) I tried a series of 3.5mm cables before, but it is too dependent on the depth being right, and my 3.5 females were misaligned, eventually not working. I’ve been getting null signals rom the 3.5 females, and the male ends were hard wired, therefore if one breaks, again send it to the shop, something I’d like to avoid doing. And 3.5s are more expensive than RCAs

Based on my reasons, Is RCA the connector a good connector for what I want it for? It’s an easily insertable, easily swappable, easily replaceable solution that, assuming the thing doesn’t fall off a table, should last for 50+ years without maintenance, except for an RCA M-M swap out. I can find 3 RCAs for 50 cents at a Goodwill, and I never had one not work. It’s misrouting which caused way more non-working errors than the physical connector.

Like I keep saying, all ANY connector does is bridge an electrical connection. The RCA connectors will be just fine. I’m really not sure what you’re still having doubts on.

I personally would never use them in stick-related projects just because the sheer size of the connectors makes it impractical, but that’s just me.

Like you aid, you have your priorities, I have mine. In my world miniaturization is not a factor. I was burnt by a Joystick in the 90s when it broke down twice in a month and I had to mail it in tot he original maker for service because no reputable TV repairman in the 90s would deal with a custom joystick.

One’s experience colors one’s priorities. Maybe you have a table size limit at tournaments.

At the risk of sounding redundant, if you want to read about my local victory, and how I beat a gamer who was famous from about 2005-2009, who not only I but our other friends beat with my right handed stick, before he was famous, visit 56ok.org/Ambidextrous. I said it many times, don’t want to repeat.

@freedomgundam

I only posted point 4 because i could be a little flexible with the arrangement with such a device, I would prefer a classic fight formation, but if not, I wanted to double check if my design is good for what I want it for (aesthetic choices aside. My joystick is plain white with no artwork, but the insides are unique to me. Pure American Practicality.)

Back to the main 3 points. Is 5 ms that crippling where I should fight for milliseconds? Does the RJ45 adapters have 1 ms ping or less? And is it safe to assume the RJ45 Saturn arrangement is “fight friendly”?

Oddly enough I read the SNES uses the “pad standard” which is

Y X L
B A R

which works with Street Fighter and killer Instinct without reprogramming, but the Capcom AND Ascii “Stick Standard” was

L X R
Y B A

which requires an extra step for SFII, but would come in handy for some OTHER NON-FIGHT games that would play well with a stick, like Mario, Mega Man X, Super Ghouls N Ghosts, Castlevania 4, and Contra 4.

That’s why I wanted to double check my work on #4. See if the almost right arrangement is good enough, and to save money, just swap RCAs.

Despite what certain people say on the site, a Joystick is not exclusively a “Fight Stick”. Yes, fight fans and experts might be the only ones pulling the trigger into actually buying customs, but there are quite a few games that benefit from a digital joystick, especially before PS1/N64, and a decent percentage since.

Not really sure what you mean by “RJ45 adapters”.
If you’re talking about using an RJ45 cable on, say, an MC Cthulhu, then it’s not an “adapter”. The MCC is outputting signals that are already compatible with the console of choice, and the RJ45 is just the connection medium. A real “adapter” (in the console controller sense here) takes one console’s signals and translates to another, like the PS2->Saturn ones you’re talking about.
If it’s something else you’re referring to, then I have no idea.

You are also using the term “ping” incorrectly. “Ping” refers to the round-trip time of a sent message. There’s no round-trip message with these controllers that you’re talking about. You should be using the term “delay” or “lag” instead.

Yes, I understand the RJ45 are not converters, that RJ45 is the meduim, and I understand Ping usually refers to 2-way and lag refers to one way.

The main question is the Raphnet advertises 5 ms of lag. Is that good? Is the RJ-45 Better in terms of lag? Is the RJ-45 optimized for fight sticks? (I assume it is, but he SNES version isn’t for some strange reason) And is it worth fighting for milliseocnds when choosing an RJ-45 over a Raphnet? Is the Raphnet more worth the money if you plan to use it with a regular PS2 controller than just as a fight stick adapter?

By the way, I’d like to buy an RJ45 Saturn and TG16 adapter from @opt2not but I think I may have inadvertantly ticked him/her off by writing a long letter to his email that was only meant for paypal payments.

Most for the web stores I see have PS2, USB, and Dreamcast adapters, but none of the other adapters. It looks like the only place to get it is @opt2not . A little help finding them?

You… really jump around on your topics.

Anyhow:

  1. You will not notice 5ms.

  2. You’re still using “RJ-45” as a name for… something. It’s not. It’s just a wire. Instead of saying “RJ-45 adapter” (which is incorrect), it’s much clearer to say something like “MCC connected via RJ-45 cable to a PS1”. Because regardless of the cabling method, when connected to a PS1, the MCC IS a PS1 controller with no adapters, for all intents and purposes. So if you ask yourself: “how much lag does a PS1 controller have?” this would be the same answer as an MCC connected to a PS1.

  3. There’s no such thing as “optimized for fight sticks”. You really have to keep in mind that the Sq/Tri/R1/X/O/R2 layout is the industry standard nowadays. No one will make any adapter that’ll map to the old and outdated SNES LXRYBA layout. If you want that, you’ll have to figure out some custom setup for yourself.

  4. You’re on your own for custom adapters made by fellow board members.

It wasn’t only that you wrote me a novel explaining why you want these cables, which was irrelevant since I already told you I do not know the inner workings of the MC Cthulhu.
You also wrote a lot of passive-aggressive complaining of the price I was charging, the paypal fees, and shipping costs. This was after I explained to you with details that I don’t make that much profit on these, and most of the money I do make after cost goes back into keeping stock up. But that didn’t even register with you.

I don’t respond to people who are only looking to antagonize others, or acting like an entitled brat, throwing shade at people for things they don’t agree with.

@opt2not I don’t think I was being passive aggressive, I was trying to save you shipping in parts y shipping 10x worth of parts and save on shipping, plus people tend to be more efficient in labor when doing 10 back-to-back compared to doing one, waiting a week, and doing another.

I was just explaining the deal to you so that when you took my money, I was verifying that I understand your terms. Priced is as marked if already made, otherwise $30 for a custom one off. Free shipping to US. Either gift Paypal or add 4%, and I understand he reason why, so that hoping internationally can be compensated for accurately. 4% from the US to South Africa is more expensive in dollars than 4% from the US to Mexico and your percentage is based on the total received. Paypal makes no difference between shiping and item cost. I’m not complaining.

Heck, I was wiling to pay $30 for PS2 cables.

Thank you for refusing, because I found a PS2 and USB cable for $12 each and $5 for shipping both.

About Ping

And when @FreedoGundam said 5 ms is not much compared to 16 ms frame of a 60 FPS 240p game or 33 ms for a 30 FPS 480i game, only about 1/4 to 1/8 of a frame, I believe him. If it doesn’t effect speed runners of 1UP games, then it shouldn’t effect fighters. Especially if you consider the average “response time” of a predictable only in presentation but not in timing, (like staring at and hitting the Big Buck and a Spin Square on Press You Luck and not knowing the Larson patterns and going strictly off reflex) is 150-200 ms. it was doable in the Flash version of Whammy on the old GSN website, if you had a CRT monitor on your computer. I’ve beaten Larson legendary score more than once ($110K+change), and consistently get over $50K. The exact same website, which is available on retro flash game sites, is impossible with a modern monitor.

I’m just trying to decide whether to ask politely/start a ruckus :stuck_out_tongue: because you are the only game in town for RJ45 connectors for specific machines, or whether I’d be happy to try other options. Some are cheaper than yours, one is more expensive, but more versatile. @FreedomGundam says 5 ms is unnoticeable for the Raphnet Saturn adapter on fighting games (I assume on a CRT TV, other TV your results may vary). I guess I’ll look up acceptable joystick lag on SRK, and I need to find info is 5ms is unnoticeable in Speed Running on some other site.

And yes I understand you don’t make much profit in then and suggesting profits are 10% of the cost or less (if you factor free labor time). If it takes an hour to build one device, that’s $3 an hour, way below minimum wage, let alone a desirable profit for any businessman in it STRICTLY for the money.

I understand you do it partly because you enjoy doing it, and partly because you are able to and like to help people who are classic game enthusiasts who can’t do it themselves, like myself. There may be other reasons, but it’s not the traditional capitalistic reason for the money. If it were, there’d be at least one mass manufacturer of the things you make.

Personal details

As for my length, I tend to have more free time than the average person because I don’t have a job, but I have an income on Social Security Disability. I’m cooped up in my house and the verbose talk is a (previously hidden untli i self-reflected) call for societal interaction. If I’m not adjusted on my medication right, i tend to babble and sound hyper emotional.

I have to access the build on demand labor market, because I specifically want a right handed fight stick for many consoles. I want to do it partially for myself because it can boost my performance, and partially to show mass joystick manufacturers than an Ambidextrous joystick is possible with almost no hardship to traditional left-hand-stick players.

History of the right handed stick industry

I’ve ben burnt by a a custom joystick maker in the 90s called KY Enterprises, whose workmanship was shoddy. The only reason I tried them was because they were recommended by Sega during the Genesis era. I don’t knw whether that speaks poorly of KY Enterpises or of Sega. At least it’s better than Nintendo’s answer of “just practice and beat the others”.

Remember, this is Nintendo who we’re talking about who would NEVER recommend anything unless it was licensed. Even though they made Sip-and-puff NES controllers for hands free play, and made one for each children’s hospital in the naiton, they never thought their left handed design might be causing some people problems.

Beeshu WANTED to get an NES license for their Ultimate NES controller, but were denied because they were seen as competing against the NES advantage. The only thing that forced Nintendo’s hand was licensed TG16 and Genesis 3-button joysticks of a similar design. By that time, Beeshu sticks were retroactively licensed and were allowed to sell new versions with the NES seal of approval because the only “failure point” was flooding the market with a knockoff. Once they saw a right handed stick as not-a-knockoff, they passed them retroactively.

Xbox One first the first system to offer a standard licensed interface for multitudes of handicapped controllers. Their commercial gave me a happy tear. You think a handicap at least 10 perfect of the people have, if you believe stick-right is a lefty control, or more, if you believe left-stick is a way to milk more quarter out of players at the arcade banking on the fact that 90% of people are right-handed and using it against them, would be profitable enough where someone would take over for Beeshu’s legacy of ambidextrous controllers.

My history advocating for ambidextrous fight sticks

I was promised by Mad Catz before they closed, the next “untied to a license” model would be an ambidextrous model. Considering the fact that all their joysticks have basically the same arrangement, and only have different artwork for fans of a certain series, that they’d jump on this. If they knew they were closing they can promise anything and say “we tried”.

Hori USA say I have to write to Hori of Japan. I’ve written to their email, and they never wrote me back. I don’t know who else makes “mass market sticks.”

My 2-week moment of empowerment

I don’t necessarily have to be the best in the world. I just don’t want misfires in my Dragon Punches. If I react too late, fine. If they block it and counter with a combo, fine. But if I will a dragon punch in time and it is either slow enough to be telegraphed or misfires too often with a pad or even a left-handed stick, that is unacceptable. You don’t know how frustrating that can be. If I’m force left handed, I usually play E Honda, but I’ve beaten Akuma with Ryu on USFIIFC skill at default skill, which means one-crediting without losing a round up to and including Sagat, and then beating Akuma, and it was a best 2-of-3 sitch, which is WAY tougher to get to Akuma than doing it with one-round-takes-it-all.

As I said, I don’t want these to be fighting words, but the things that happen once are easier to remember than an everyday conversation one year removed. On 56ok.org/Ambidextrous I discuss my ost memorable time with my original right-handed fight stick, and was equally devastated when I found out it was a black hole of money to keep it maintained.

The victim of my story became famous later. He denied it publicly, but he told me privately was that he had a reputation even since he won Life to the Power of X, and didn’t wanted it trashed by me, so I asked if he wouldn’t deny it if I included stuff to say that that was a moment in time, and that he learned you need the right tool for the right job and a default Genesis 6-button pad was not it, so he bought a 360 Fight Stick. We both agreed both facts were true, so he said go with it. By the way it wasn’t just me. What made it epic was the skeptic challenged all our other common friends with them on a right stick they all clobbered him, never losing. Some of our other friends beat him sometimes with a left-stick, a couple never, but with a right stick, he was beat bad and always.

That was my most empowering moment in a video game, even more so than getting the Simpsons Arcade 1-credit world record, because I was always good at Simpsons Arcade, but this is memorable, because this was empowering and unlocked potential in not only me, but found a secret to help others. His was this expert that was put in last place of a local group of 4-8. In our 8 player tournament of multiple games, he never finished worse than third in 25-50 different games. The best I finished was second in our group of 8, and always keeping me out of the top was Jamal. I’d like to think he learned a lesson from that day, and became even greater because he learned “the right tool for the right job”.