CvS2: Ratio Mode vs. Single Match Mode

Classic Fighting Games Capcom VS SNK 2
21

personally, i think i like 1 on 1 more. 3 on 3 doesn’t bother me. i actually like it better sometimes cause i have more variety during one fight. for example, don’t u sometimes get bored of winning with just one character in a game like 3S? i do. also, 3 characters allow you to test your skill more. what i mean by this is that you can insert a character considered low tier and match him up against lets say Sagat and see how you do. thats pretty fun IMO. 3 vs 3 is not bad, but i think i would enjoy 1 vs 1 also…maybe even more. and i know this sounds really bad, but i sometimes believe that cvs is a better game than cvs2. some ppl will be shocked, but unbelievably, some ppl agree with me (or i agree with them…however you wanna look at it).

oh this has nothing to do with this cvs2 talk, but sometimes, dont u guys think SF needs more atmosphere and story back in the game? like in a3, the stories were pretty cool, but cvs2 just seems kinda gay and not a lot of atmosphere. i liked the old school sf games more sometimes just cause they had more excitement. i can’t really explain it…i think it may be nostalgia.

22

Sorry guys, but i don’t this is gonna ever get off the ground. It’s just too late in the game for this you know, plus with All Stars coming out, nobody really wants to get excited about CvS2 again. We have this huge random variable to look forward to and guess about, and that’s XBox Live CvS2, but it’s pretty random at this point so no point in guessing already.

But even though i don’t think we’ll ever have separate Apex systems for Team and Single Match CvS2, mainly cuz those damn Cannons are so lazy (i’ve been protesting outside their house for Apex CvSPro for weeks with nothing to show for it), there are a few good points that need to be made.

First off, like James said, there’s a huge difference between learning matchups and learning how to to deal with the fact that you don’t know matchups. If your best character is Guile but you have Cammy on your team, when your opponent picks Vega, you’re automatically going to try to match up Cammy against Vega because Guile vs Vega sucks so bad. But that’s not learning a matchup. Believe it or not, there’s a whole bunch of tactics that your Guile will be FORCED to learn from Guile vs Vega that he just doesn’t need enough in other matchups for him to break down and learn them. These tactics will branch out and help him in every matchups as well by adding to his variety and versatility, and give his mind something new to play with - a new problem and a new approach. This is called FLESHING OUT YOUR CHARACTER. It takes time, and it takes effort.

But in Team Play, even if you wind up with Guile/Cammy/Blah vs Vega/Blah/Blah and you have absolutely no fucking idea what to do and lose for free, your opponent (assuming they are about the same skill level, and he just tries to avoid your Cammy just like you try to avoid his Vega) will lose for free to your Cammy and you’ll wind up even thinking you both know matchups and got skillz. You may call that strategy, but it’s really just knowing the game at a very simplistic level and never having a reason to get advanced and elite and og or whatever.

Cuz let’s face it, a lot of these characters win for free. Like Sagat for example. Sagat wins so many fights for free, that the Sagat player has really no idea what he did RIGHT to win. What’s worse is, when he loses against a superior player, he has no idea what he did WRONG to lose! If he has no idea what his mistakes were, he’ll have no idea what to change, and what does that mean? Means he can’t adapt for shit! And what’s the number 1 thing that separates top tournament players from scrubs? Adaptability!!

This thing is even worse with Blanka. Because at least Sagat is sort of logical, in that he is such a basic character design. Fireball, uppercut, low fierce, jump roundhouse. But Blanka is so … different. Blanka is basically Rolento in this game. How many people do you know that can actually play Rolento without Custom Combos? Let’s say the teams in question are A-Rolento/Iori/blah vs N-Ryu/Blanka/blah. Rolento can’t use custom against Ryu because then Blanka will rape meterless Iori for free (don’t argue with me on this, just go along with it for sake of example). How many people do you know that could actually WIN A-Rolento vs N-Ryu without using CC? I’m betting most of the Rolentos you know tend to wind up at 20% life vs 60% life Ryu and just use CC to win the match. Or run away for 50 seconds until they have meter, then CC to do damage and find some way to land a combo and win, without caring if they lose 30% along the way. That’s not knowing a MATCHUP, that’s knowing how to use a CUSTOM! Yes that’s a stategy, but it’s such a shortcut strategy because it applies to all your characters.

These sorts of tactics are what predominates CvS2 because learning when to low fierce with Blanka means you pretty much learned when to low fierce with Sagat. Learning when to roll with Sakura means you pretty much learned when to roll with Shotos. There is a way around this obstacle and that’s picking non-top-tier characters like Shotos, Guile, Kyo, Terry, Rock, Rugal, Kim, and Dhalsim and FORCING yourself to play footsies against characters who clearly have the advantage. But how many people are willing to do that? Plus of those people, how many people have the patience to get hit by 30 low fierces and still keep trying to find a way to hit it back without just giving up and hoping they’ll get lucky jumping blindly or rolling all day?

But with Single Match and sticking to one or two characters, you would be forced to play these kinds of shitty matchups even if you picked top tier characters! Because every top tier character has a bad fight, and just from those you would get much, much better. Plus your opponents, who picked say A-Iori vs your N-Blanka, would get better and better against your Blanka to the point where it wouldn’t be a free win for you anymore and you’d actually have to TRY in order to win, and definately get better in the process.

And someone mentioned using meter or not to get life back. Well, the thing applies to a MUCH greater extent in Single Match because if you use your meter, you get one round and then you’re considerably ahead of your opponent. But in the next round, your opponent will have meter and you won’t and you’ll have a really tough time getting around that so you’ll be more likely to lose that round. And if you use your meter and miss and lose the first round, you’re totally fucked and will have to know how to use your character without meter to bait your opponent’s meter just to have a shot at playing a third round for the game. That’s much better than just trading characters for meter and winding up even by the time your last characters come out in Team Play every fucking time no matter what.

Just a few points i thought i’d throw into the mix. Good thread.

23

^ Wow, so many good points in that post I don’t even know where to start.

I think the whole adaptability thing is really key. Especially with the way things are now, most Sagat’s either fight another Sagat, Blanka, or a counter char. Same for the other top tier. I get beat by Sagat a lot (honestly, who doesn’t), but I rarely ever see any new tricks or tactics. The established ones work so well, why bother to come up with new ones? Especially if your Sagat comes into the fight with an advantage, if your team did a good job of beating up on the other guy.

In A3, I can actually beat a lot of V-Akuma/Sakura’s with my A-Karin. Mostly because I play a LOT against V-Akuma and Sak, and for the casual player, I’ve seen all their strats before and I know how to deal with them. On the other hand, they probably don’t get to play against many A-Karin’s, so they get hit with a lot of stuff they never saw coming. I think the same could apply for single match CvS2. I mean, sure, Sagat/Blanka can come in and finish a round no problem, but can they take 2 out of 3? And what happens when the usual tactics get predictable? What happens when someone picks a mid-tier character the Sagat/Blanka player has no idea how to deal with? Things like that.

I also agree that in the team setting, you only really learn the surface of your character. For example, I use N-Sakura on point. It’s very easy for me to “do my job” with her. I can hit one of her level 3’s fairly easily, and get in a few uppercut combos, or standing roundhouses, and beat the other guy’s point, or at least come close. But this isn’t learning Sakura, it’s using her. In single play, the dynamic is very different. Sure, I can go for the quick level 3, but then what do I do in the next round? And even if my Sakura gets worked, I can always shrug it off and have my next character pick up the slack.

Not to mention that because I have Sakura on point, there are a lot of matchups that I rarely ever play…like Sakura Vs Sagat, Blanka, and Ryu.

Anytime I start learning a new character, I always play for a week in single play before ever adding him/her to my team. Lets me get a true feel for the character. And the computer sucks! Against real people, that’s where you can really learn your characters.

I guess I’d like to see single play in APEX because I’m incredibly bored with the game as is, and single play could breathe some more life in it. And this is the only 1v1 option outside of A3, 3S, and ST, games which, to me at least, not too many people are playing. I don’t necessarily need it in APEX, but without the APEX backing people aren’t going to bother with it at all.

24

I didn’t say that. It’s just another strategy. geez.

Turtling/runaway is a strategy. If you don’t like it, then that’s your problem. Personally, I wouldn’t do this in casual play, but in tourneys where you play to win, then hell ye I’d do it, especially if I know it’s gonna piss off my opponent (psych adv).

What’s your problem? Can’t you quote me without flaming? FFS If you don’t agree with my view then at least provide some constructive arguments.

What is the time limit to learn characters? And I don’t see how picking a third character you don’t really know how to use wins you matches because of great matchups. I’d say that’d be true if you play against mid-level players, but not to players with high-level skills.

One last thing, my bad for using “strategies” as a synonym for “tactics”. How about you tell me some more tactics instead of attacking me. Seriously, wtf is your problem??

25

this is kinda irrelevant… but I thought it would be cool if the game had a modified Rivals Schools system. It’s still 2 out of three rounds like any other fighter, but you pick 2 chars. If you lose the first round, you have to use your other fighter. Simple enough, right?

Anyway, the do-able change I’d like to see in the game most is a bump in the speed level from 3 to 4. Maybe even 5, but that’s a bit too nutty.

As far as single match… I definitely think it’s worth a trial run. Maybe I’ll run the next few SVGL tourneys with that format if I can garner enough support from the players.

26

**

Who cares about turtling as a strategy? You were trying to say that a specific instance of running around the screen with no purpose other than to waste everyone’s time is a feature of the ratio play system, that adds to the value of playing the game… I was saying that not having it, is a better option than having it.

**

I did not flame you, i was just saying what happens and making a point. You portrayed them as strategic elements of the game, i portrayed what I thought of it. Even if you don’t like my description, it’s still pretty much what people think of CvS2.

**

You seem to be promoting this cliche of ‘well if your the best, you’ll learn everything and nothing else will matter’, First off, if it were true there would be no point in discussing games at all, since the answer to everything would be to just become the perfect player so nothing else matters. The reality is that most people go ‘well damn, why waste my time with this if it doesn’t help me win as much’. Everyone is affected by matchups, the set of moves a character gets doesn’t change because a top player plays them! Also a top player that doesn’t know how to play a character is different than a beginner that doesn’t know how to play any character, which is why it’s still good enough to win most of the time.

27

My personal opinion is ratio mode is the worst of the three modes. Three on three feels more like team play than ratio mode due to the lack of the ratio two at the end. The ratio two on peoples teams is usaully the anchor like sagat,cammy,ect,ect. The ratio two ends up being the focus of the team and the other characters expendable extentions of the ratio two. Three on three doesnt have this problem and I like the fact that u can use team order switch because of the more diverse matchups that u end up playing.

People have already mentioned a lot of good points about single player mode the only thing I can think of more I can think of that character groove selection becomes more important. A-Bison is a major threat in any line up, but not quite as scary when he starts with no bar. When u dont have team members to back you up the way supers get used changes in a big way. Aside from the way super meter use changes, one on one mode forces u to know your character better and how your groove unqiuely relates to him. There on other important factor that comes up isnt game play related really but how 1v1 could affect the player base. I turned on many of my friends to cvs2 n they loved it for a while but having to learn a whole team part sorta turned them off. The reason is they just couldnt devote there whole life to the game. Most people who arnt die hard fighting game players wont/cant invest that much time in the game but they do enjoy playing. Most people find a character they like based on character design or the characters fighting style. That becomes much harder in ratio and 3v3 and still be effective overall since u have to pick 3 chars and a groove which all work well together.

Aside from everything I think single match(and 3v3) mode tourneys are great idea …even beter with apwx support!!

28

I like the idea!! Let’s get some tourneys going!! Please!!

I know there are enough people that still want to play. No one is showing any support for it.

I’m ready for tourneys in my back yard. Somone come over and help me!

Geese!!

29

One of the better discussions I have seen in a long time. I am making this thread a sticky with the hope that maybe this could expand on the CVS2 scene and maybe introduce some new format to tournaments and the way we approach them.

30

Single match tourneys would be very cool. It gives us something new to try in CvS2 instead of the soon to be boring crap.

31

I agree entirely with Gunter. In fact, I think Ill start running weeklies at Stockton Golfland using this format. Should I just have the players choose one ratio 4 character each? Or is there a way to set up the machine for single character play? Also, what would be the problem in Apexing the results? Is there a rule against single character play, or were you guys just talking about having a separate ranking for it?

Ill let you guys know when the tournament will be, if youre interested in joining.

32

All you your points are valid, oriku, but thre’s one significant mistake in the logic of your arguments 9not a flame, just pointing it out):

The strategies you are listing have nothing to do with the characters.

The reason for bringing up the single-match mode is because we want to learn character specifics. Everyone says Zangiefdies to Sagat pathetically, but I disagree. I think Zangief can fight back (but then again, I am always on Zangief’s side). Regardless if there is more meter management or character order to take into account, that doesn’t affect Zangief vs. Sagat. I am specifically looking for ways to gain more knowledge about match-ups.

I think 1-on-1 match ups would greatly benefit CvS2. Probably turn it into a better game. I mean, HONESTLY, who here does NOT have a team with a supposed “Blanka-killer” or a “Sagat-killer”? In Alpha 3, if your character was Charlie, your character is CHARLIE. You don’t look for a Sakura killer or an Akuma killer. You used Charlie. I’ll bet you, right now, that most characters can fight Sagat and Blanka than you think. And, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe they are Gods of the game. But the thing is, we don’t know. Which is why rankings for CvS2 have been actually really hard to justify. Do we really know our characters?

The only weakness is that we WILL see a drop-off of Makis and Geeses and Mais. Because maybe they just aren’t up to snuff with the top tier. We probably will see a larger use of Sagats and Blankas and Cammys. But every game has been that way. But we will always have the dedicated Guy user and the dedicated R.Mika (^_^) user. We will always have the Fei Long lover of Super Turbo and Cammy users of Super Turbo. And they will surprise you. Do you know that R.Mika’s Standing Jab can beat Vega’s Crouch Strong in Alpha 3? Did you know that a Cammy Jumping straight up Strong will beat a wake-up Tiger Uppercut from Sagat in Super Turbo? Probably not, but someone out there does. Someone out there finds these things out because they hae to. NO ONE knows these kinds of things for most of the CvS2 characters. THAT is what CvS2 will benefit from from Single Match Mode. And it may, in the end, even make Ratio Mode MORE fun.

And I’m gonna kill this whole “CvS2 Single Match Mode in Apex!!” now. Let’s not even start trying to beg for CvS2 Single Match Mode Apex. It’s too late, and it’s not going to happen. In fact, even though I’m a proponent of the CvS2 single match mode, I don’t even want that in Apex. It’s too late: the game’s too old, no one cares as much anymore, and Evolution 2003 will probably be just Capcom All-Stars anyhow… there’s no real point for national rankings of it. But for PERSONAL knowledge? Who knows, maybe if it catches on, we can outright replace original ratio style CvS2. :slight_smile: You never know.

I applaud Capcom’s attempt for making an interesting new system for teams. It has promoted variety and I like it. However, I honestly think there’s a better way to do it. If anyone from Capcom Japan secretly reads this, I hope to propose to them THIS idea for a future team-based SF game:

3-on-3 Set with random order may be the most fun for a team format. If there was a 3-on-3 mode, the cpu determines your order randomly, and every round began with the NEXT TWO CHARACTERS, that would be more fun. In other words, if one team is A, B, and C and another team is X, Y, and Z (CPU chose them in that order), then round 1 is X versus A, Round 2 is Y versus B, and Round 3 is Z versus C. Whoever wins the round, WINS. The winner of the match is the first person to win two of those rounds. THAT would be the best way to incorporate teams, IMO. I even dislike King of the Fighter’s method. And you have to make the computer randomly determine your character’s order. Then we can still have some meter management issues with your team, but we would learn MATCH-UPS. You’d be forced to learn Maki or King against 100% of the characters, because you have NO clue who you are running into. The team idea was cool, but it has yet to be properly implemented (in a non-realtime switching environment like TTT and MvC2).

In any case, I’m just dreaming now, fantasizing, and there is very little point to that. It’s not gonna happen, and as much as we’d like to believe it, that idea will never reach a Capcom of Japan’s game designer’s ear. So I need to stick with reality more than fantasy.

And I’ve said enough for now. :slight_smile: Just wanted to add one last comment that I think the Japanese style of play is the best: single elim, 1 round, 1 character (or team) forever. That’s the way to learn match-ups. No more of this “coutner character” or “switching teams or order” thing that bogs games down. That type of strategy is just a cop-out and a substitute for really learning your characters and match-ups.

  • James
33

I just wanna point out that the random method jchensor suggested would be soooooo easy to implement. I just don’t think they will do it, because most players don’t like random anything. They like to be in control. How would you like if the computer chose random supers in a game like SF3? That would suck cock for most people (i would like it a lot). For me, random character/super/order/ratio select is a thrill because I enjoy trying to win using any combination…but because Street Fighter appeals to many people, not just hardcore players, I don’t think Capcom would ever seriously consider a random team order. In consoles YES, in arcades…probably not.

34

I think u need to use the YAMAOOUT password in the games option menu to unlock single match mode.

35

I have no problem playing geese only. :slight_smile: Geese isn’t going anywhere. At least, mine isn’t.

36

sorry. i haven’t been around the boards for a little while. has chun li somehow become top tier within the last few months or something? anyone care to fill me in on why and/or give a link to the thread where this is shown?

thanks

dj

37

Y’know, I don’t particularly care for APEX, especially since there are no games on it that I really like/play right now, but I get the feeling that unless CvS2 Single Play is APEX supported, not too many people are going to want to invest any time in it, aside from those who think it’s a good idea and really want to work on their characters.

Hope I’m wrong though, I’d like to see something breathe new life into this game.

38

:lol: :lol: :lol:

39

Me and zekemek were messing around with single character play last night, and it changes up the whole game. In a good way. We may be throwing some tournaments following this format.

40

Yeah, my mistake… Geese actually is pretty top tier. I think we’ll still see a flock of Geese in tourneys. :stuck_out_tongue:

Chun Li would be top tier in this situation because she’s a viable character that can fight both Blanka and Sagat. And she holds her own against many others. She may have weaknesses against certain characters, but the fact that she can take out the top two tired characters is hugely important and beneficial to her position on the ladder.

I think if people are interested in trying this out, they really just need to start running tourneys this way and playing in this mode. I think if Apex supported it, it would help it a lot for sure (I wsn’t trying to put down Apex at all). But I’m just saying that pushing for it NOW is a losing battle because we have nothing to support the need for it. In fact, if CvS2 ends up becoming a better game with Single Match Mode, then who knows? Maybe the whole nation will switch over (in tourneys and serious play, not casual local scrub arcade play). If anything, play it that way at home a lot more and see how different it turns out. We’ll need as many people to try it out as possible and to see if they like it or not before we can determine if this is a smart move. Anyone who runs a tournament using Single Match Mode, please share your results and thoughts afterwards. Was it more exciting? Less exciting? Please let us all know.

  • James