I use both Blanka and Chun Li in K. Honestly though, Blanka can be used in any groove well; K is good for him because it has small jump and run which is all you really need to play Blanka. His roll sucks anyway so you’re just losing roll cancel (it’s nice to have, but you don’t NEED it to win). As for Chun-li, I admit N and A are better for her because she’s got a good roll, easy CC, or stocks to burn on her b&bXXsuper, but I do fine in K.
Sagat!!!
Tanion…im sorry but vega should not belong in a groove…Vega is WAAAAAAAAAY good in k groove…
im outi
Roberth
**
This overgeneralization kills me lol, ‘k-groove is about being aggressive’. WTF is that supposed to mean, do grooves increase speed now? FBs are faster in 2x faster K than in N? From a systems perspective, P is more aggressive, as you’ll see:
For instance a few posts ago i mentioned that i couldn’t find a move to retailiate after a JD’ed Sagat C.fierce (playing as Sagat). So as soon as my opponent gets an oppourtunity to use c.fierce, he can freely. I have to stop my offense to react, it is possible to counter the fierce and gain control, but the point is that I lost the initiative.
In P there is no such thing, anytime i believe there will be a attack, i simply tap d or f, and continue the offense, if there was an attack, I get back in for free, if there wasn’t, no loss. If i was in N/C/A, I RC the next special just in case.
Add to that the fact that K’s super bar doesn’t increase with offense, only by defense. Are you also saying that its more aggressive to run into moves than to attack your opponent?
**
Probably, but by then it’ll mean 3rd place prize instead of 1st, i can accept that. This post wasn’t about me anyway, it’s supposed to be helping people who are developing their gameplans. I fail to see how “Your way sucks, my way is aggressive and better so change whatever your doing” is going to help anyone.
Tanion - Only C,A,N have roll, but you seperate it into a table, and state that those grooves are for ‘rolling whores’, which means the same thing. You’ve written a lot, but most of it seems to say is ‘use K groove if it benefits you’, or ‘your moves do more in K-groove’.
I haven’t seen many people address specifics, either we’re over theorizing about counters or saying ‘Use X, but don’t abuse it, but only use it if it benefits you and your opponent is not expecting it’… sometimes i think we just post to watch ourselves type, i’m guilty of this as well. But through an hour of testing i was able to create several different gameplans around what i can and can’t JD vs top chars. Afro was right (even tho you can’t short a c.fierce 
) if were going to talk strategy, we gotta go into the details. I’m sure if half the people with DCs spent a little time on practical things instead of combo movies we would stomp Japan in SBO.
oooooooh, a pan-pacific Battle! A Battle opera even! Anyhow, FMJ does have a point about move specific JD options and other ‘relevant’ stuff. But i do thank tanion for his general breakdown of the K-Groove chars. Also, isn’t rushdown part of general K straT?
Tanion is a fucking newbie
Dude, mroe then half of what you said is completely wrong.
First of all - Rugal and Eagle excel in C groove or A groove because they have quick ass (but still unabuseable) rolls and they have very very strong customs and cancels.
Iori, Benimaru, Athena (especially), Kim, Mai, and Blanka are all very good characters to be used in K.
Bison and Rolento are not rolling whores and either are Akuma and Sakura. Rolento’s is slow with shitting recovery and frankly, who ever needs to roll with Rolento needs to pick a new character. Bisons is quick, but with all of his moves and abilities, rolling doesn’t have to part of his game. Rolling whores would be Iori, Rugal, and Kim. Kyo’s roll can be effective too, it might be slow, but there is no recovery at all.
I don’t know where the fuck you play, but Vega, Ryu, and Sagat do not belong in A groove. Vega’s most damaging custom does about 4-5000 and you have to in the corner to even activate cc. Sagat and Ryu both deserve grooves where they can run and dish out level 3, more along the lines of N or K.
Morrigan is a A groove whore, her best custom does about 8400. Bison is also another and if you don’t know about his custom, then you are dumber then i think.
N groove whores would be Sagat, Ryu, Akuma, - just to name a few…
Morrigan and Yun do not have good level one supers. For both of them, their level ones have way too much lag. Good level ones would be Mai, Bison, Ken, Blanka, and more…
Sagat does not need to hold his level 3super to be effective, his c.fp alone is effective enough. Thats why u use him N, or K, or even P.
Oh and if you are in P groove, well you really don’t need that level 3 super to win for the reason being that you are parrying!!!
Tanion is a fucking newbie
Tanion is wrong and so are you. He stated what he thought was good for those grooves. Just his opinion. No need to lash out on someone like that.
Vega’s CC does not need to start in the corner. He can activate anywhere. I’m sure there were more flaws in your post but, I’m not gonna bother. So stop calling someone a newbie cause you’re probably not that much better than him.
i didn’t feel like quoting everything FM said, because i don’t disagree with him that much. But I do disagree with having turtling as your gameplan in k-groove.
why you ask? wut does k-groove do that allows you to turtle better than most grooves? you can’t sit on a super!!! ur guard doesn’t take too much to break. and JD doesn’t help ur turtling much, if it does i would like to know how it really helps turtling.
why choose rushdown as your gameplan? your got ur small hop options, which always helps. not that this should happen alot, but if you run into a anti-rushdown poke, ur gain meter. AND JD!!! it is geared to aid in rushdown, it isn’t a parry at all, but it give u vital frame advantage to BEGIN rushing down, or JD then go for a knockdown somehow (to either try a cross up combo, small jump land low attack, small jump land throw, small jump +attack, etc…mind games). also by rushing down u can make good use of ur super in k-groove, because ur attacking, and making them make a mistake such as roll into a combo–super, or crack their guard into a super, or you don’t necessarily have to use ur super to make use of the rage meter. your THROWS TAKE AWAY A SHITLOAD WHILE RAGED. if you land two throws its just about as good as a super.
now…i explained how come i think rushdown is better, explain to me how to turtle in k-groove [if you can i would honestly like to know, because i would incorporate it into my game a little, i just haven’t found a good way to turtle, unless it is with rock, but even then i only turtle for a lil bit (such as like 5 to 8 seconds at a time unless im in no position to go attack)]
He meant turtling in K groove when you are not raged. If you can JD well thru turtling then I see no reason not to. However, when you do get raged, I suggest rush down otherwise you’re just wasting your meter. Unless your opponent continues doing risky moves, then go ahead and sit back and counter with your super.
I don’t recommend turtling in K. It is for rushdown. That’s why certain characters like vega aren’t very good in that groove.
umm… Balrog is VERY good in K-groove… he can turtle if the opponent is rushing him and gain lots of meter and counter well out of JDs and he can rushdown with run/small jump and JD backing him up…i’d say his best or one of his best grooves
PS. i mean claw vega.
at least somebody posting knows their things. please…for future reference to people who don’t know wut they are talking about…if u get an inclination you don’t know wut ur talkin about…please don’t post…just do like i do when i don’t know something…read
I can think of only one situation to turtle in K:
You have used your super (almost no bar), you are in a situation where you are about to lose (less than 20% health), and your oponent wants/needs life back from time, so he is willing to be offensive.
In that situation you can force them to come to you, as any chip attempt is easily JDed. Basicly if your oponent isn’t content with winning by time, turtle your last pixel of life to hell. Its super funny when you get back a quarter of life JDing and eventualy super them, when you were clearly loseing.
But, as I said, this only works against those who are not willing to sit across the screen and take a time win.
This is a misconception. While you gain Ikari meter by Just Defending, what else gives you meter? Being hit. Why are you being hit? Because you aren’t defending.
Implications of K Groove give away that’s it’s more aggressive than Defensive. First, Running is combo oriented and pressure oriented, as opposed to Dash which is mind games and control oriented. You don’t see Shoto rushdown in a Dash groove. Also, the nature of the Ikari Meter is very aggressive - you get a 35% attack bonus with a time limit on your meter. What good is a 35% attack bonus if you’re not being aggressive? Moreover, what good is a meter that you can’t sit on if you’re playing defensive?
P Groove is completely reactionary. They do something, you do something. that’s the only way you gain meter. You can sit on the meter. Dash allows more often throws than combos. Just Defending is a bonus for having defended, because you’re theoretically supposed to be attacking a majority of time, which is why you get rewarded for being hit because you’re being rewarded for being aggressive.
My best example is Morrigan. P and K Groove Morrigan are completely different, because I play both. You don’t play one like the other. P Morrigan pokes, command throws, and corner traps, trying to cross up when she can, punishing with chains when she can. She sits alot and wait for opportunity. K Morrigan creates opportunity with aggression. Fly in hit, poke fly poke, cross up chain, super (that was really generalized but you get the idea). Moreover, with her low vitality, she’s rewarded with a Level 3 super and 35% offense bonus for being hit/Just Defending. That’s even more incentive for aggression.
Just my two cents.
Mummy-B: I’m trying to learn how to use Morrigan because I just love to sneak in her command throw after a JD [either from a jump-in or otherwise]. But for me… she always seems to just die after she finished getting raged. Where I play, there is a lot of A-groove Bison’s and Rolento’s and a bunch of blanka players. Oh yeah, you are always good at playing Nakoruru in K-groove too right? What kind of strats do you use against your opponents when you play them? Also… which one do you think does better against a top-tier character? [Blanka… Sagat… etc]
**
The fact is that if you aren’t perfect, your going to get hit, and the game doesn’t care whether you turtled or attacked to get hit, it gives you the same meter. So that aspect is even among turtles and agressors. The only difference is that in other grooves you literally build more meter for attacking than getting hit, so by definition they reward attackers moreso than defenders.
**
Are ‘mind games and control’ the new buzzwords of the time? Not only that, but now we’re quantifing it as well lol, now you have more mind games and less mind games. Damn! how did we ever have combos and pressure and mind games without running and K groove! i don’t think i can ever play alpha again :(.
**
Even the worst turtles will still attack once or twice before that long ass timer expires, if they hit, it justifies all that turtling they did to get the meter plus some. I don’t think it’s possible to even do 4000 damage without raging an empty meter anyway. Which means 3 throws or a super, according to you, that must mean i’m being aggressive. To me, it means being not totally stupid, of course they have to execute some minimal attack to win.
Who gives a damn about a timer anyway, that’s a long ass time, you can go raged, get hit with a full custom, and still land your own super back.
**
Damn your P groove sucks if parrying is the only way to get meter, maybe your machine is broken, the P groove i know of says: “Meter gains 1.1 points on a hit, 0.4 on a guard, 0.1 when attack is missed.”
That whole paragraph is fluff. Getting hit = being aggressive? WTF, so if i go perfect someone, i’m not aggressive, shit that is news to me. I thought being aggressive was about being aggressive, not about all this other bullshit you guys make up. Theoretical play is only good if IT MAKES SENSE.
This whole thread is bullshit now anyway. I found more useful K groove tips in a half hour on my own than in 2 weeks in this thread. The only good thing was Cole posting his counter that doesn’t work, because it drove me to test it myself.
when you parry on reaction, yes you are often playing defensively. parrying a fireball would be considered a defensive move, unless you’re close enough to nail them back.
parrying in general is not defensive, in my opinion. people don’t play P groove to parry fireballs from across the screen to avoid chip and guard damage. they often use it in anticipation at point blank range, like in 3s. this is an aggressive style. every play soul calibur? parrying is kinda like a GI in SC…it should be used as an aggressive measure.
this should be a strat thread anyway. all this talk of “being aggressive” or whatever isn’t really strat i don’t think. if i’m looking for K groove strats and i see a page on whether or not K groove is an aggressive groove, or what chars are good in OTHER grooves, it doesn’t tell me much.
dude FMjaguar your missing the point…
"The fact is that if you aren’t perfect, your going to get hit, and the game doesn’t care whether you turtled or attacked to get hit, it gives you the same meter. So that aspect is even among turtles and agressors. The only difference is that in other grooves you literally build more meter for attacking than getting hit, so by definition they reward attackers moreso than defenders. "
the point he was trying to make is you will get hit MORE if you are aggressive rather than defensive…shit if you really good defensively you aint going to get hit and block everything…so if you get hit MORE when you are agressive, your bar will go up…
i hit on this earlier in the thread…when your k lights up you do more damage and defense increases…if this isnt incentive to rushdown i dont know what is…if you rushdown and trade all day you will STILL end up doing way more damage to your opponenet because of your bonus from k…(this isnt theory its fact) yes you could turtle and hit an opponent once or twice but so what, if you rushdown you could have hit him like 6-7 times and even opened up a mistake from all the pressure your applying then hit them with super…when you turtle all you do is wait for your opponent to make mistake and if he doesnt your not going to super…
anyone can play k groove how they want turtle or aggressive it doesnt matter but one COULD be more beneficial the other way…
on the issue about p groove, i dont neccessarily think that p groove is ALL reaction orientated…there is A LOT of ways to bait out parries and option selecting parries where it leaves you safe (except maybe from throws)…i mean your reacting to their moves but like if you bait out parries your almost expecting it to come out and if you option selected it dont matter if it comes out or not…example…your a shoto ryu or something, your hovering over opponents body on his get up you do c.lp c.lp (then you stop the combo hoping that he throws out a low poke to stop your pokes if it dont combo or if you try to walk up and throw) pause, d (this is for the parry) if no parry you can even do 2 downs, and on the 2nd down you do down+mk into fireball or super fireball IF your mk hits or if you parried followed by c.mk then super…
so there are set ups for it where its not entirely reaction…
oh and ive seen ken in a groove be VERY VERY agressive…mainly cause his dash is small and quick and it almost looks like a run…so its possible…
im outi
Roberth
Getting hit still causes you to take damage right? So getting hit != being aggressive, getting hit = losing. I’d love to play ppl that think like that “Look at me run into all this shit, i’m aggressive! Wait, why is my life bar draining, oh nooooo”. This is a misinterpretation, with aggression your not afraid to get hit because you force your opponent to break your offense just to hit you, nowhere have i seen that your supposed to get hit MORE, that is crazy.
**
That is all i’m saying. However this difference is up to the player. The facts state that K gains more from being careless, which i now see to most people means offense, maybe that’s why a lot of people have problems, they are associating offense with carelessness.
“Getting hit still causes you to take damage right? So getting hit != being aggressive, getting hit = losing. I’d love to play ppl that think like that “Look at me run into all this shit, i’m aggressive! Wait, why is my life bar draining, oh nooooo”. This is a misinterpretation, with aggression your not afraid to get hit because you force your opponent to break your offense just to hit you, nowhere have i seen that your supposed to get hit MORE, that is crazy.”
the thing is, it doesnt necessarly mean that your just going to fuckign run in and get hit…when you apply pressure your normally going be doing damage, when playing very agressive your normally going to be doing damage, so if they break your offense by trading with you or hitting you it doesnt really matter, you get bar, match is reset and you go again…
theres also a difference between reckless rushdown and smart rushdown…not all rushdown is reckless and knowning when to rushdown is also a key…
im outi
Roberth
You know, it sucks when the body of your post dissapears.
So… what?
Remember that K Groove allows you to benefit more from getting hit than any other Groove.
Now, I’ll address everything real soon.
Hum. Well, I do recall controlling the momentum of the match as a form of control. Oh wait, look over there, there is actually a form of word “control” in there already. P Groove is supposed to effectively change the momentum of the match in your favor; thus, if you are attacking me and I Parry you and knock you down, I now control momentum of the game and you don’t. Do you have a problem with this definition of control? Let’s Just Defend something. Heck, let’s do the SBK as a good example. Can’t really do much about that can you? You can JD all day. They will still have momentum. Parry? Shit I can I Parry a ROLL CANCELLED SBK once and then COMMAND COUNTER it. Guess who has “control” now?
Mind games. Well let’s see. Running. Run doesn’t stop immediately. As a matter of fact, I can hit you before to stop Running and can JD, or even block (but JD is faster so whatever). You can’t throw me by Running up either. The safest way to end a Run is with a normal (whiffed or hit), or a special like a DP or something. Maybe a command throw if you’re quick - I would say Morrigan since hers would be the easiest (it’s hcb, so you start from where you left off inputting the Run command), but she can’t command throw in the air very well. So your options are left with Running and trying to land a combo, Running and whiffing a normal to stop, Running and trying to hit a normal (like Shoto rushdown), Running into a speical, Running into a short jump/normal jump. I don’t even count running into a Super, but you could I guess. Can’t do it as well as with a Dash, because I’ll land a Dash -> Level 3 consistently, have in tourney play.
Dash allows for a Dash in combo, poke, throw, command throw, special, super, short jump, and P Groove you can bait a Parry but that’s brave. I got less to worry about when you Run. That means you’re easier to anticipate. that means you have less ways to fake me out. I will even go out on a limb and say that you have less Mind Games (completely putting aside individual character comparisions).
What an ignorant statement.
So, you’re saying that it’s perfectly fine for you, with 35% damage bonus and an expiring Level 3 gauge to sit there and wait for me to come to you? You must be out of your mind. I’m sorry, but when I see a full Ikari Meter, I run the fuck away. If you are going to sit there while I back off and you lose a Level 3 and 35% damage bonus, hey, I’m alright with that, be my guest.
And the CC example was ridiculous. Something that would have made sense is blocking a custom and finding a hole at the end and hitting them with a super. Unless you’re referring to playing a scrub to doesn’t block at all when you can still Level 3 super him.
Hmm. Well, let’s go quote the CvS2 Knowledge Base, the line after yours:
Meter also rises when Parrying,…
Now, if you go into Training Mode and test this out, Parry gains more meter than a block. Which means the only thing that gives it more meter is landing a hit. And what do you do after a Parry? HOLY SHIT! You LAND A HIT! :eek:
Now then, as for your ignorance on aggression. I’m sure you’re familiar with MvC2. Know Storm right? Know Magneto? Good. Now, Runaway Storm and Rushdown Magneto (is there any OTHER way to play him?). Here Storm is, super jumping, flying, hitting fierce to build meter, making an annoying ass moaning sound like she’s being raped with a pole, and Hailstorming you. Here is Magneto, trying to catch her, getting all sorts of chip damage, while the King of Rushdown is trying in all futility to catch her. Magneto can’t win. Why? BECAUSE HE CAN’T HIT HER. Why? BECAUSE THE CRAZY BITCH IS RUNNING AWAY as opposed to GOING IN TRYING TO HIT HIM LEAVING HERSELF OPEN TO BE ATTACKED. Guess what? The Runaway Storms I know beat Magneto by BAITING RUSHDOWN and HITTING HIM WHILE HE’S BEING AGGRESSIVE LEAVING AN OPENING.
Understand now? Last I checked, if I’m all the way across the screen, holding back, picking my ass, I don’t get hit with a DP. But if I Jump in roundhouse trying to get a hit in being aggressive, I get DPed. gasp DAMAGE. How did this HAPPEN?!?!?!?
Well, when you are more aggressive, you leave yourself a higher chance of being retaliated against. Because of this, as you are more aggressive, the chances of taking damage go up. Now remember the first reply I did, about how K Groove rewards you for being hit the most? Yeeeeeah it’s all coming together now isn’t it? I don’t know any other Groove that give you a full meter after being nailed with a Level 2 Super Cancel, Level 3, or CC.
Now, why don’t you use that high and mighty ego of yours to push your intellect a little higher to decipher a meaning of a post, as opposed to reading everything literally on the surface then acting like a jackass know-it-all. If you are really that high and mighty, do what the other top players do here: not post.
See above.