Yeah, I try not to talk about fighters I have less than elementary knowledge of. I learned my lesson when I said that VF felt slow and clunky.
I am hoping that VF5 on the 360 with it?s online play will help change that. VF is highly under appreciated in the states
I once tried VF4 before I was into fighters enough to go to forums and then I bought VF4EVO a year ago after reading its acclaims. I didn’t want to be close-minded so I gave it another chance, I was ready to actually get into it. I learned the connotation and browsed VF forums. But I just wasn’t feeling it. I don’t think online is going to change that for me. The problem I have is that everything about VF other than Goh gives me the feeling that Yu Suzuki wears his necktie even while sleeping, and has a glass bowl of Worther’s Original on a table near his brown recliner which he sits in while watching silent movies on his wood-panel TV.
GUILD WARS FOR THE EFF’IN WIN, MOFOS. BEEN PLAYING SINCE 2005 AND STILL ACTIVELY TODAY.
GW >>>>>>>>> WOW
GW, the greatest MMO you’ve never heard of. /representing
my two favourites put together? GW and Fighting games? did the stars align and the angel with 6 mouths open the 4th to sing a beautiful lullliby?
ok now that i’ve gotten that out of my system…
I’m actually surprised when i first heard about this, Isaiah (GW skill balancer) and Sirlin chatting it up about game design, oh snap!
This was one of the best podcasts or whatever it was I’ve heard in a good
long time. Thanks for that link. I’ve been at his site now (and now a forums
member) for like the last week. I’ve learned some crazy ass stuff. Can’t
wait to purchase his book too.
~K.
GW for the win fo sho! I would be interested in listening to some more crazy bug stories like the one they explain at the end of the show lol.
sirlin doesn’t know much about 3d fighters. the way he talked about tekken and SC2 made this painfully obvious.
i posted this before, but spacing and “controlling space” is huge in soul calibur. consider something like Ivy vs. Taki - this is 3d space control (air control, 8 way run) with 3d movement. Ivy is the closest thing to a projectile fighter (more like dhalsim / beam fighter) who has the typical zone / space control play style. Taki actually has some useful jumping / use of 3d movement (EXC cancels and shit).
i’m guessing sirlin’s point was there is no fireball spam. ok so what? you can space control games without fireballs. does this make a 3d fighter less deep, or not as fun to play? if you fuckers want beam spam play VO:OT (which is pretty fun IMO).
^ you dont even know much about 2d fighters.
Well if you really do play 3D fighters you would understand that controlling frames is a thousand times more important than controlling space in 3D fighters. Sure there is some level of space control but it’s minimal when compared to frame advantage.
controlling for frames? this is just as important as space control. you can only punish certain moves depending on spacing. e.g. trying to punish a max distance deathfist can usually lead to your move being whiffed depending on range. depending on spacing it is better to block or side step. depending on spacing you might want to crush a low move or do something else. at low levels you have people playing unsafe w/ tons of punishing. at higher levels people play safe poking and spacing games. yes unsafe moves are used in a psyhic DP type of way. fighting games usually have walls / ring outs. this makes controlling for position and movement really important.
that frame / punish shit is in 2d too. Cable AHVB, Chunli’s/Ken in 3S. this is really important in high level 2d play as well. Knowing when to punish with cable w/ full super = win. why is guile so good in almost all fighting games? almost every move he has gives him either 0 or frame adv on block. yeah i admit boom is important for controlling space but the point is his boom leads to ±0 on block and is really fucking fast in terms of recovery frames.
im really glad josh brought up naruto 4 for cube. this game has a very effective sidestep an a very effective jump, and all characters can double jump. the game also has some of the easiest controls to learn of any game ive played in this genre, and really allow people to reach the mindgame part a lot faster.
kakuro is the single most fun character ive ever played as in any fighter, as well.
On this topic (I guess), where can I get a download for the “Bang the Machine” documentary?
You can’t.
No shit you have to control spacing somewhat in 3d fighters.
The point is that 3d focuses on time (aka frame advantage) and 2d focuses on spacing. It’s not like he was saying that in a 2d fighter you never have to worry about frame advantage or in 3d you never have to worry about spacing.
Remember the key word is focus.
Duh there is a little bit of both space and frame control in 2D and 3D fighters. The point you’re missing is that 2D fighters are much more reliant on space control while 3D fighters are much more reliant of frame control. It’s that simple, case closed.
this is where i see a forum bias. most of the people here don’t really play 3d fighter competitively. so they have no fucking clue what “focus” means. for example, if 2d was 51% spacing, 49% frame, but 3d was 51% frame and 49% spacing, i’d see people making absurd claims that 3d is all about frame and less about spacing.
my point is in high level play in 3d, spacing is a much bigger deal than what the above people think (and less with frames). why? because at the top level people use safe moves, and space unsafe moves such that they are safe. e.g. Ganryu’s low is un safe - but all the best players use it safely at the ideal unpunishable range. hence it becomes a lot of movement (light dash, bdc, side step, etc) and poking based gameplay.
high level (korean) tekken w/ top players
[media=youtube]ekZFm-dG7xc[/media]
almost no punishable moves used that could be punished purely based upon frames. as for adv, disadv - that shit exists in all fighters, but clearly it wasn’t a big deal in this match compared to spacing, poking, use of wall combos, sidestepping, movement - pretty much what top play is about.
you’d get different views on this issue depending on who you ask in the top players in the 3d community.
I think you misunderstand the spacing point. It doesn’t mean that people won’t use the space that’s there. It means that there is less space to control overall compared to a 2d playfield.
Sure the people in the vid were controlling space, but how much space was it? Also I noticed that after every knockdown the other person just ran up right next to him.
Compare this to say ST where sim and guile are pretty comfortable pushing you out to 3 character lengths away, ryu will knock you down and then move back(!) to start a fireball trap, etc… i don’t see any of that in this vid, could be wrong tho.
To comment on your other examples. An important part of Cable’s AHVB is that it has full horizontal range, it’s not instant IIRC, just fast. The fact that he can actually do damage from this range, makes him unique compared to someone like magneto, who controls the space immediately in front, but can cover space quickly by wavedashing / trijumping / etc…
So if your playing vs cable or magneto, you know that if you press a button from half screen you get hit, same thing right? Well since magneto has to move to get there, you can defend (or try to) with assists like sentinel drones, capcom corridor, or spiral’s knife assist. But vs cable all those assists (with the same timing and distance) will lose, because he’s not physically in front of you and not physically attacking, so you have to change the timing so those assists are already across the screen, or change the range first. Point being that spacing creates a lot of different strategy depending on how far the spacing is, and whether its from a limb, or a projectile.
As for 3s, keep in mind that some refer to it as the ‘3d SF’ anyway.
The point of the whole thing (at least from me), isn’t to say "tekken sux, sf rox ". Its to illustrate different types of games, and point out that there are actually advantages to the og 2d style. Just like in FPS there are games like Quake, Counterstrike, Call of Duty, etc… in Fighters we will hopefully have SF, Tekken, VF, all in the same space.
What I don’t want to see are people forgetting about the classic elements of SF, writing them off as ‘fireball spam’ and not including them in future designs. I agree that Ivy is unique, but also keep in mind that Soul Calibur as a whole is not that hot in the tournament scene. It remains to be seen if namco will try to add more diversity, change it to something more tekken-like, or forget about competitive play and just make some super conquest mode.
Apparently you don’t play 3D fighters competitively either or you would’ve understood the point of all of this a few posts back. We never said spacing didn’t exist in 3D fighters or that frames didn’t exist in 2D fighters. We are simply pointing out the “fact” that 3D fighters are more about frames than spacing, and that 2D fighters are more about spacing than frames. Is this concept so hard to understand? Just hit up TZ and everyone there will tell you that they would take frame advantage any day.
In most cases you are unable to do “damage” at fullscreen in 3d fighters. You are also unable to do chip damage.
i’m not even gonna bother responding to scrubs (e.g. corner trap).
Sure the people in the vid were controlling space, but how much space was it? Also I noticed that after every knockdown the other person just ran up right next to him.
In Tekken most of the Oki is up close because there are no fireballs / weapons / dhalsims. Still you do have tech traps which may require unique spacing. But consider in SoulCalibur2 - Astaroth, Nightmare, Ivy - there are characters who may not want to be as close during wakups.
As for less space to control, I’d agree*. You still have to be careful about this point. With 3d fighters you are controlling 3d space - hence you must consider step moves AND air moves. It’s really a more about movement (WaveDash/LD, auto step moves, stances, etc) which controls space. it’s abstract. That’s what makes it really difficult to compare about “controlling space.” So while you draw rectangles in 2d for space, you’d be drawing cubes / spheres for 3d.
My point here is STFU if you don’t play both 2d and 3d competitively. I see way too many people here refusing to think outside of sirlin’s box. I grew up on Street Fighter 2 back in the early 90s, and still play ST, 3S, CVS2, SNK shit, Jojo, etc. I find nothing wrong with OSagat like zoning or fireball traps. My posts here have nothing to do with 3D is great / 2D sucks / etc. I like fighting games that are well made and can be played competitively. I don’t care if that means 3D or 2D. I just hate people who think that not having fireballs in 3d makes 3d somehow less deep. Scrubs who think frame adv is everything in 3d is annoying, too. you “control space” with movement and mobility in 3d.