I think the Soul Caliber series fits that description more. DOA’s execution requirements are far above that of SC’s.
“wow so he is saying that graphics are actually limiting the gameplay…
so as of now it’s impossible for 2d gameplay to go 3d”
Did you even listen to it dude? He never really said 2D was limiting the gameplay, its that 2D fighters have a different playstyle compared to 3D. Technically, yes, it is impossible for 2D gameplay to ever be 3D gameplay without making it a 3D game. You don’t fight for space in 3D, because in 3D you can sidestep and get out of corners…easily. You can’t “sidestep” in 2D.
Kill yourself.
uh he meant that 3d graphics were limiting the gameplay 
lol did YOU even listen to it?
3d is limited 2d isn’t. you can’t make a 3d guilty gear cuz the 3d graphics makes it very hard to develop.
the reason you don’t fight for space in 3d is because you can’t even control space in 3d. you can’t perform projectiles you can’t put traps around the battlefield etc. cuz it’s really hard to develop.
Correct. You need to be supercool like me to play it
While do I agree that you can’t control space in 3D fighters as much as you can in 2D, some of you guys seem to be forgetting that you CAN keep the opponent from sidestepping around you in a 3D fighter. It’s called tracking/horizontal range. Also, in Tekken, some characters have throws that make you change position if it is broken or if it lands. If Bruce is backed to a wall and does 1+3, the opponent’s back will be to the wall if they break the throw. In 2D, the fight for space usually(or always)woops forgot about 3s takes precedent over time(frames) but you obviously fight for frames in 2D fighters as well.
“Sidestep” in 2d is the jump. In 2D you do anti-air/air-to-air. In 3D you do a move that tracks or has good horizontal range.
But I wear my sunglasses at night…
I agree with Rioting Soul’s point on 2D and 3D emphasis.
Space and positioning is so key in 2D fighters and you can really tell the difference between good and bad players by just seeing where they move on the screen. Space dictates the situation you are in, that Ryu positions himself just right for FB traps is more important really than weither or not Ryu is at + or - frames of advantage/disadvantage.
In 3D spacing is limited and the fight is very up close so frames are pretty important to understand the situation you are in. +5 and +7 might seem like a small difference but it can be a world of difference in VF. The sidestep is your way of getting around the ring and avoiding traps, but it can be punished by circular or half circular attacks in the same way jumping can get you out of traps but can be punished by Dragon Punch or AA normals.
This was a great listen. Any chance of Sirlin as a recurring guest?
Read through the thread after listening and there were a lot of interesting points and comments in the interview and in this thread.
Just to make light of my opinion on certain things:
I don’t believe it’s any harder to program, it may be more work, but there is no technical issue from stopping this from happening now or even 5 years ago (or more). The issue is with what type of game you’re making along with balancing and making sure that the players can keep track of the stuff. If the initial trap that was laid down failed, the player could wander back into it later as it’s very difficult to accurately control space and force a character to stay in a certain area.
From a 2D vs 3D perspective where Jumping is compared to Side-Stepping, Side-Stepping is a much stronger option than Jumping is. Side-Steps are much quicker and right now as games are designed (especially Namco’s 3D Fighters) a literal “Trap” can be rolled out of when you’re knocked down or Side-Stepped away from and the trap loses it’s power. When you look at Jumping, you’re committed to an action where you have no further control (at least in Traditional Fighters) and a simple Fireball trap has much more significant meaning because your only option to avoid the trap in general is to Jump which gives the opponent enough time to act against your reaction. As newer games come out though we see a progression of object traps becoming weaker (ex. Parry weakening traditional fireball traps). With the addition of Double Jumping and Air Dashing, you further weaken the traditional projectile trap so you’re either forced to upgrade the traditional fireball (GG is a good example of fireballs being buffed to counteract the added mobility features).
It’s true that 2D and 3D now are very alike and I agree with what Sirlin said about how 3D right now is just 2D but purely horizontal rather than actual 3 dimensions, but that just means the 3D Fighter sub-genre still has room to grow. They both offer different experiences so even though it’s off-topic, I hope that people never stop making 2D Fighters because 3D Fighters don’t make Fighting Games better because they are a product of progression from 2D Fighters, they just offer a different experience.
“This was a great listen. Any chance of Sirlin as a recurring guest?”
Might be! They interview tons of people from the game industry so.
I think that making a 3d game that controls space would make the game overly complicated. Now I know that the people who frequent sites like this one probably could follow such a game, but the vast majority of the market would just ignore it. 3D games are modeled the way they are because the Japanese players love games of yomi, and the Yu Suzuki style fighting system that DOA, Soul Calibur, and Tekken are using create a simple to learn, yet hard to master system for the games. 3D fighters as they are now are heavily complicated with just the current system, can you imagine the amount of complexities there would be if you have to set up zones and such in multiple directions. Chaos.
I liked the interview. Many good points were made during the course of the panel. I for one have figured that most of Smash?s success comes from the fact that execution in that game isn?t as important to play that game as it is in a more ?traditional? 2D fighter.
I was wondering if an SF game was made with simple execution, if more people would play it. Bump the normal attacks down to punch and kick and add a special attack button. Let supers be no more complicated than fireball motions. Maybe not a tournament contender game, but it could be a compelling casual affair.
That?s my two cents.
UrkAngiJordi
I think making the execution simpler would definitely make the game more accessible to the general public. Also, I think it may even be possible to have a tourney-worthy game that uses simple execution than most of the 2D fighters we play today.
I think one of the biggest problems with the 2D fighters today are their arcade heritage. All of our favorite Capcom games are based around a 6 button config. The problem is, most people these days play on a game pad. And really, using all 6 buttons and pulling off tricky motions on the d-pad is tricky at best. Sure, most of the people on here will go buy an arcade stick. But the general public won’t.
I’m sure there’s a way to simplify the control scheme and still keep a reasonably deep game intact. Someone just needs to make it happen.
You’re making me wish Soul Calibur didn’t have GI.
You know it’s come to my attention that when people mention 3D vs. 2D in this site. 3D is ALWAYS Tekken/Soul Calibur. Jesus, VF really doesn’t exsist in the states… :sad:
Ain’t that the truth…
Wait a few months.
I downloaded and listened to the Critical Hit #4 - Game Balance yesterday.
Great listen. It would be dope if Sirlin did podcasts for each of the articles he does on his site.
what a great Listen 
alot of awsome points, very enlightining on many points
Very true actually. It’s one of the things I dislike about the game.
The GC Naruto fighting games are an interesting example of 3-D games that feature space control.
This is most notably seen with Itachi, Haku & Kankuro. Let me cover them one at a time:
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Itachi’s jumping A drops a clone straight down on the opponent, from anywhere. It can be sidestepped, but the timing is not easy. His up+A similarly tracks the opponent, and his f+A is a forward-moving clone attack that CANNOT be sidestepped. All of these attacks are risky up-close, however.
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Haku can toss needles by tapping A in the air, and freeze them by immediately pressing A again and holding it. When released, they home in on the opponent. This gives him access to interesting mixups, and the opponent needs to get close and hit him or make him block something - the needles will then disappear.
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Kankuro is basically Eddie in 3-D, except his helper character is almost always available. The puppet has a nice air projectile, a charging attack, a ground projectile that can be charged, and even a throw! This creates a variety of positions where he is at a major advantage, and some positions where his opponent is at a major advantage as well.
There’s also Shino, who has a ground projectile and one that drops from the sky - both track the opponent. He’s bottom tier in like every game, though.
Additionally, Naruto EX for the Wii has a new character (Deidara) who almost exclusively fights with projectiles and is very good, but that game is completely horrible so I won’t mention it again.
So as you can see here, some type of tracking seems to be key to making projectiles work in 3-D. It’s definitely not impossible, but people seem to be satisfied with the current crop of exclusively up-close fighters.
-Josh