Considering a Switch to Makoto. Technical questions

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1

Sup fellas.

So i’m an old time Akuma player. Been kind of trying Makoto recently as i found Akuma over the years to be very limited in style and freedom of play. Tough i don’t think ill ever drop the Demon, i’m thinking of putting him on the bench for a few months.

I’m doing pretty well with Makoto, Of course that is whenever i face decent players, because i feel she relies alot on mindgames and mixups which against bad players just end up in a reversal mash game. I Generally don’t feel like dumbing my play down so it’s ironic. I do well against good players, and bad against terrible ones, lol.

Anyhow !

I got some questions on her before i decide on switching.

One of em is the infamous Hayate-cancel.
Comboing is nothing new to me, i can put out pretty much any combo or difficult inputs that exists. ( Kara-demoning, complicated option selects, walking demons, 2 input demons, max damage FADC combos, 1 frame combos ). But ive never got to master Hayate-Canceling no matter how hard i try.

There is something i’m doing wrong. I got 5 sticks home, from typical Madcatz sf4 and super sf4 sticks to a Fighting Edge which i enjoy very much. No change there, i’m sure there is a trick in doing the inputs i just can’t get. Has anyone a tip on how to decently execute it on the stick ?

Also, Iv’e heard V-Ryu talking about how better Makoto felt on the Fighting Edge. To be honest i feel a bit better playing her on the FE than other sticks, but it may just be because the stick is sexy and V-Ryu recommended it, how do you guys feel about it ?

Finally, idd like to have some Makoto Vet’s opinion on this. basically, why should someone switch to her ? what makes Makoto you guy’s choice ? What makes you feel good playing her that you didn’t find in any other character of the cast ?

Thank you in advance fellas.
-Wolf

2

Something I do for hayate cancelling is presing kick at the same time as punch,you just have to hold the inputs a fraction of second and boom! hayate cancelled instantly

3

Not sure I qualify to answer everything, but as for Hayate cancel, you’re probably doing it wrong.
The ideal way people usually do it, is :
Do the normal
then doing qcf+lp+lk wait until the feint is done ( by not stopping pressing lk+lp )
then link something else or do your mix up.

As for the rest. Why would someone switch to Makoto ?
Well, she’s fun, she’s not a very common character. And she’s a character of extreme, which is sometimes very enjoyable, sometimes a bit frustrating, but pretty unique.

As for playing against baddies, don’t hesitate to dumb down, it’s not a shame really. Just learn her safejumps & setups against DP mashers, so you can at least kill them quick enough that you don’t even have time to rage at how bad they are.

4

yeah I’m definitely doing it wrong, i was just wondering how you guys pull it off, helpfull advices but i wonder. How core is it to Makoto’s damage potential or mixup potential ? Ive seen Haitani plenty and he doesn’t seem to use it much. VRyu on the other hand ive seen abusing the fuck out of it.

So is it an additional tool in the arsenal, or a must, and why ?

i didn’t have the time to learn much, right now i haven’t done much research, i just apply some mix-ups i came up with in the lab

I know that as far as safe-jump, this one I’ve seen somewhere on the net when i did a quick search for safe jumps. back throw > forward dash jump > neutral heavy kick. Works wonders against spammers. Tough it seems not to work against everyone from the cast so I’m still adjusting to this one.

Also i found ( millions of people probably found this before me, im just saying stuff i found in the lab ).

  • After focus crumble > forward dash > Wait > L.Fukiage xx forward jump + heavy punch reset > Cross down dash > Ex.Karakusa ( they usually try crouch-teching, eats em alive ) > S.Hp XX H.Hayate

I found this mix-up to land id say 75 % of the time. It seems to be mind fucking both inexperienced and advanced players.

As an alternative to this, i delay my air heavy punch reset and i double cross down + sweep

I was also mind blown by the amount of damage she can dish out of 2 ex bars, its scary.

  • Focus crumble > Wait > L.Fukiage > Ex.Fukiage > Ex.Tsurugi is like 390 damage from what i recall
  • Corner S.Hp xx Ex.hayate > L.Fukiage xx Jump > Ex.Tsurugi is also 400-ish

It’s just insane for 2 bars, and as far as execution it’s a breeze to pull off

Last thing ive came out with in my limited knowledge of the character was

Backthrow > slight step forward > Kuroshio ( Hold ) ( Crosses the body ) > Shimaki, Yamase

This for some obscure reason gets people so many times and i haven’t got a clue why. Not sure if it’s because they’re not used to being crossed-over before waking up but idd say if they don’t block, they usually get hit in the face, i rarely get Dp’ed for some reason.

So that about wraps it up for my Makoto knowledge. It’s very limited. I fel like i posses the execution and the apm required to make her justice, i just need to study her more i guess. Not even sure if my current set-ups are acceptable at high level.

5

The amount you use it comes down to personal preference. Haitani plays a very simplified, fundamentals focused Makoto. V-Ryu’s take on her is all about creating hesitation and confusion so he can set-up his wide array of tech. It really comes down to preference. Personally, I’m pretty bare bones myself, but that has more to do with me not being able to remember ALL the stuff she has.

That doesn’t work against 3fr reversals. Omit the landing attack and you’ll block the SRK.

6

Apm? Actions per minute? Is this an rts now? I mean don’t get me wrong, dat mental dexterity is great but

7

Press a kick button the same time you input the punch button and hold for a few frames. For example, if I’m doing FFS I usually hayate cancel the HP with a MP hayate + LK (if I screw up I get a slightly charged MP Hayate) and plink the MP afterwards with LP.

Simply a matter of preference.

As soon as she was announced I said “I’m picking up Makoto over Abel” (might’ve still been using Abel as a secondary if he had his original design) I choose characters based on how they look and look like they’ll play, and Makoto just looked cool (I’m also a sucker for a girl that could kick my ass, Makoto could kick anyones ass. O_O Dat S(parta).HK). I think I got lucky using Abel before hand. They are kind of similar in some ways, both are capable of heavy mix up game, both have a command throw (although Abels is massively better, Makotos has more damage potential), special anti-airs are unique and only hit airborne opponents (but Makotos is better, at least it does damage if it trades, and better hit boxes), C.MK anti-airs are similar (but Makotos is better) and canceling step kick into a dash to combo into S.HP feels similar to FFS. They feel similar in ways but they do play a lot differently and Makoto feels a lot more risky than Abel.

Why they should switch to her? I usually tell people not to switch to Makoto. She’s pretty much only for those who are determined to use her because they love her.

8

Abel and Makoto definitely share a lot of similarity.
Although, these days there’s very little reason to play Abel over Makoto beside personal appreciation of the characters in my opinion.

Back to topic tho, you can find a lot of setups for safejumps and meaties in the Rindoukhan Bible.
Watch Haitani’s matches to see what he uses for mix ups after backthrow, it’s an important part of her gameplan and he’s very good at it. ( safejumps, fake safejump, late tsurugi, empty jumps, etc )

And yeah, fukiage into jFierce resets are awesome.
Her jump fierce is insane, probably the best jump in button after Sakura’s own jump Fierce for offensive play.
Don’t bother yourself with hayate cancels if it doesn’t tilt for you yet. It really doesn’t have that many uses beside FFS and poking without losing positioning with your strongs.

9

I’ve read all your posts and kept hitting the Lab to study the character more. Played her quite a bit, even ranked high at a tournament with her. I think i’ll put the demon on the bench and go with her. I like her all or nothing aspect. I like that off one reset i can insta stun most of the cast.

I often ask my opponents after tournament matches why did i win how did you feel playing against me. To pinpoint what i did right. I was told by many players they felt overwhelmed by my speed and mixups upon playing Makoto. I think that’s why i love her so much, the fact that i feel like i’m just overpowering my opponents with crazy mixups, resets and traps. A pure rush-down bullying.

I also feel like i have to be the better player if i want to win, the smartest. I can’t rely on cheap tricks or gimmicks.

So thank you to everyone who replied, i saw each post and took what you all said in consideration.

But since we’re on the topic, here is an interesting this i found in the lab :

I think ive never seen any other Makoto players do this and i am wondering why.

( when having no EX bar )
Usually, after focus crumble, i
F.Dash > F.Punch > F.Hayate, then go for a post Hayate mixup.

This is, i found out i can slip in an instant air light Tsurugi in between the F.Dash and the F.Hayate

So it goes like this :

What i see most people doing out of no Ex bar focus crumble:

Focus Crumble > F.Dash > F.Punch > F.Hayate

What i Do:
Focus Crumble > F.Dash > Instant Air Tsurugi > F.Punch > F. Hayate
It adds about 50 damage.
Why don’t i see anyone do this ? At first i thought it was difficulty and i luckily pulled it off, but its a very easy combo, i pull it out about 85 % of the time.

So more stun… more damage… same post Hayate mixup.
How am i not seeing this everywhere ? Or am i missing something here ?

Anyone can answer this ?

Thanks !

  • Wolf
10

The way you explained it is a bit confusing haha.
I think the reason people don’t often go for a instant tsurugi after a focus crumple is because the timing is a bit tight, and if you miss it, you either go flying with an useless jMK, or you hit them too late and put them in airborn state. ( which can be good in the corner to follow with Fuki > ex tsurugi, but not so much in midscreen.)

Although, I personally try a reset mix up every time I get a crumple, unless it’s from a single or two hits.

11

Sorry ! I’m bilingual but sometimes when i want to explain something too much stuff gets confusing lol.

Yes i usually go for a L.Fukiage > Jump > H.Punch reset shenanigan, but i thought about some of those times when i’m just going for pure damage without wanting to sacrifice any EX bars. I’m trying to think why would players i see playing Makoto not use the instant Air Tsurugi after Crumble > Forward dash. It’s quite a bit more damage and stun.

You bring up the point that the timing may be a little tight. I have to say with next to no practice i land it 8 time out of 9. But I’m thinking maybe years of Akuma mastering instant air fireball vortex facilitates it.
I still recommend people to try it out, once you get the timing down it’s pretty darn easy and the reward is huge.

Oh, one last thing Noocta, I can confirm to you that if you mistime and do it late, you do not send them in airborn state, you just whiff. Good thing is you recover before them, so on a fluke you just lost damage, you didn’t put yourself at risk.

12

Well, doing tsurugi > fierce > hayate after a crumple is not THAT uncommon.
Duke does it pretty often as a follow up for focus attack against long pokes, like in these matches

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-_dbjuPUKA

Actually, thinking about it, I don’t really see people doing for just Fierce into hayate that often on crumple anyway.

13

Best meterless damage option off a crumple state is probably IAT, st.hp, Hayate cancel, st.mp, mp hayate.
But… I like to spend that meter anyway so I do lp fuki, kara hp fuki (works on most), ex tsurugi. Lp fuki is also interesting if you like to fish for crumples with FA+backdash, which is safer than always buffering forward dash. And it baits reversals.

14

Damage is even higher if you do IA st.hp HC st.mp 2nd level LP hayate,but yeah,most of the time the best option is spend meter or even going for a reset

15

Sometimes you’re too far to do sHP xx HC, sMP after a Tsurugi tho.
Actually, pretty often.