Guys, Honda would not be high on my priority list. He still loses to all the same characters he did in ST, just less badly. Yeah, his good matchups are ugly, but counter-characters are a fact of life in ST.
The only character tweaking I see as an absolute must is Akuma nerfs. I actually don’t even think the raging demon is the biggest problem - it’s his keepaway game. Making his normal hitboxes the same as Ryu/Ken’s would help, but something really needs to be done about the air fireball. Maybe make the fireball reach the ground more quickly, so the opponent would have more time to punish him or at least close the gap…
This is one of the rare cases where I would rather risk going too far with the nerf bat. Akuma will ruin this game if he remains as is; the same would not happen if he became lower-tier.
I have to respond to this comment mostly because it’s this type of comment that bothers me from people defending Honda. The reason why Honda needs to be fixed, and I’ll bold face this so hopefully everyone will see it, is that:
75% of Honda’s matches ARE COUNTER MATCHES.
If this isn’t a problem, I don’t know what is. There is not a single character in the game who has 75% counter matches that aren’t all dominating the opponent (he’s too good, like Akuma) or getting dominated (character isn’t strong enough to compete). Honda has nothing BUT broken match-ups good AND bad, which is actually more retarded than having it only one way. It’s like I said, if I designed a character who was 100% invincible to everything except fireballs, couldn’t move, couldn’t attack, and couldn’t be thrown, he’d have the same rank and match up stats as Honda.
Haha come on! None of Honda’s bad matchups are as bad as they were before and some of them are getting close to equal, and most of his good matchups were made a little more reasonable. In my opinion, all of Guile, DeeJay, Ryu, Chun, Sagat, Boxer, Claw, Blanka, Dhalsim, and Dictator are at or between 4-6 to 6-4. Ken and Akuma beat Honda, but I wouldn’t call them counters in the sense of like DeeJay v Honda in ST. In the end Honda still counters 2-3 characters, and you know I agree that he could have been nerfed in an extra 1-2 ways, and there’s no doubt that those characters needed to get more competitive in all their matchups, but I don’t really think there’s a big problem with Honda now.
I am heavily blinded by the fact that my favorite characters in HD Remix are Cammy, Fei Long, and Zangief, I’ll admit. It’s very irritating. Again, my biggest complaint is that Honda was a big problem point, he was such a glaring issue in ST. You just think there would have been a bit more effort in making him more balanced. He pretty much got 100% improvements outside of the Hand Slap nerf, which is relatively minor.
So you’re right. Don’t nerf Honda, make the other guys stronger. But what did we get? Cammy with a weaker Cannon Spike. Fei Long with a weaker Chicken Wing and a weaker Short Flame Kick. These bottom tier characters got their best moves NERFED. How were they expected to beat Honda? Try harder? Like with T.Hawk?
I’ll admit. I’m probably not as mad at Honda as I am using him as a scapegoat for my frustrations. Right now, he’s the biggest misstep in the rebalancing of ST, and he’s the easiest target because his problems were SO glaring. Before the game came out, it was funny… I remember reading posts from people saying, “Well, it’s a GIVEN that Stored Oicho and Jab Headbutt will be nerfed…” and when he came out, both were still there. In fact, Jab headbutt got better! That’s just the thing. Honda was so carefully preserved and balanced and yet characters like Hawk and Fei Long and Cammy were altered in such dramatic fashions without any care to preserving what they were before… so much that their result was guesswork. And to go along with the guesswork, their best stuff was nerfed!
So yeah, I definitely give Honda a harder time than I should. I said I’d try to tone it down, and obviously I failed miserably. I’ll try again, and see if I can pull it off this time. :wonder:
This was as regards the “don’t show pause menu during pause in training mode so that you can see hitboxes” — what if you had the pause menu in a variable location such that it didn’t occlude the hit boxes?
I hate Honda too. If I actually cared about winning more than looking fab in Gief’s speedos, I’d whore Honda too. Way too much easy junk.
I hate Gief’s new FAB motion, but I’ll be happy with whatever they give us in terms of patch.
On the plus side, I hope everyone realizes how marvelous this conversation is. The fact that we might actually get a patch for a game is pretty excellent, as opposed to in the past where you were stuck until the next physical revision.
I really hate to rain on everyone’s parade but chances are the patch changes are already done. I’m guessing the patch is either Beta and in Capcom QA or is going through the submission process at Microsoft. The submission process is two weeks or longer. If the Title Update fails the submission process it’s put at the back of the queue until it is fixed and the submission process starts over again.
Chances of anything suggested here for the first time making it in is slim to none. Based on my personal experiences the only things that will be fixed are the serious bugs. I just hope that these fixes are highly tested and we don’t get a ton of knock on bugs to deal with after.
megaman: … with the important note that anything truly interesting can be factored in by the relevant developers or testers for later releases if they’re paying attention. So even if we end up ****ed on something this release – maybe that knowledge gets passed along and … Street Fighter 5 maybe benefits. =\
Speaking as a developer, that’s why I ask questions about things I might know I can’t fix at this point. But then a year later rolls around and maybe I have that knowledge and take advantage of it in a newly open development window.
You make a great point. Future revisions can surely benefit. As a side note I have yet to work at a company that gives a shit about a game post one update… So maybe that’s why I’m skeptical.
James you have nothing to apologize for. Honda should be singled out because he makes the weaknesses of the characters you mentioned that much more apparent. I mean the really fucked up thing is when you ask yourself the following:
Who is the best against fireball characters out of Honda, Fei Long, and Cammy?
I’d have to give the edge to Honda. (jab headbutt, blowthrough super, floating fierce, trip guard lk, butt drop, more lethal up close etc.) Now ask the following question:
Who is the best against non-fireball characters out of Honda, Fei Long, and Cammy?
Fucking Honda again. He is just overall a better character than the latter two. How does that make sense? He gets to keep an advantage over all non-fireball characters, and yet he’s still better than the other two when it comes to fighting fireball characters. I call fucking shenanigans.
Maybe I’m a little off base, but can’t the same comparison be made about other characters, too? Ryu and Ken are supposed to have slightly different focuses (long range vs short range specialty), but overall, how many matches would it be better to use Ken than Ryu? Ironically, the only one I can think of is E. Honda Do you think that Ryu is poorly balanced as a result of this? (And maybe you do or don’t, I’m just asking.)
So, why is it just about everyone agrees Akuma needs to be nerfed or banned, yet we’re not supposed to talk about it as that thread was closed? A good assumption is that no character tweeks or changes will be made in this patch so Akuma = Banned and Honda is still a counter whore. Eh, this game although amazing for the most part is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
So maybe that’s why I’m skeptical.
Do you think that Ryu is poorly balanced as a result of this? (And maybe you do or don’t, I’m just asking.)