"Drastically reduce meter gain on whiff, increase meter gain on hits"
This would probably make Chun better. Other higher tiers also, beside Urien.
How often have you seen a hitting move punished?
You are really making an argument that ultra system is dumb, which it is. However fireballs are still more powerful, damaging, faster and overall more useful in SF4 regardless of the risk an ultra may pose.
You forget there is risk on the opponent’s part as well. Prediction ultra get you killed if you whiff. So yeah it kills when it hits and it gets you killed when it doesn’t. It’s kinda the reason you don’t see as many anti fireball ultras as you would think.
Regardless of the argument, you see fireball zoning from fireball characters in SF4 series being successful at a high level routinely. It doesn’t exist to that extent in 3s. Even players like Kuroda don’t zone like you can in SF4. (I would be surprised to see 1/3 of fireballs in 3s as in SF4) There’s a reason for that, it’s because fireballs are just “meh” in 3s.
Quite possible, but the point of this idea isn’t to nerf a set of characters it is to nerf a playstyle and promote more interaction.
Why are people saying ‘neutral’ on block for PROJECTILES. That makes no sense at all. It’s a projectile, the distance from the target + hot/block/parry determines the amount of advantage you get, not just the hit/block stun. This is like the entire basis of Gouki’s air zankuu offense.
[sarcasm] I always hear about gouki players complaining about their lack of offense due to crappy 3S hadous. [/sarcasm]
The way hadous work in 3S is fine, they’re not the end all be all tool for zoning. That’s the only difference. They still setup situations that are advantageous for the attacker.
That’s because 3S is nothing like SF4. Anyone can Zone in 3S, without any kind of hadou, it isn’t some necessary tool. It isn’t necessary in any game. Ryu isn’t a ‘fireball character’. Neither is Ken. Arguably Akuma is and you definitely see him throwing scads of them every game.
Neutral on block from a block string. So I would be looking at cr mk xx fireball as being neutral on block or perhaps -2 at most.
Ultras are only the beginning when it comes to the things most characters can do to get around projectiles. Most characters just have a ton of shit just embedded into their character and the overall game mecahnics that allows them to just blow through any projectile on a good read and netting solid to big damage for doing so on that very read.
So…the properties of the projectile change depending on when they’re used…? That also basically gets rid of 50% of the usefulness of EX Hadou. Of course you can just change ex hadou too.
But I don’t get it. I don’t see how that improves much of anything while keeping the game like 3S.
And strangely enough even though Capcom has jumped backwards and forwards through every hoop possible to give any and every character ways to deal with fireballs they are still used far more in SF4 than 3s…
Do you really think shitty fireballs is what defines 3s?
-Make Sean’s tatsu safe ON HIT, and extend the hitbox on his cr.fp and srk a little
-Eliminate Chun’s ability to super jump after her SAII and bring back the hit box a little on back.fierce
-scale back meter built by 30% on moves that do not connect while all other activities that build meter remain the same.
That is all.
I dunno I feel that’s kinda relative considering there’s only 5 or 6 characters in 3S that even have projectiles since the game was constructed from the ground up to have a weaker fireball game with a lot of the New Generation cast especially not having even one projectile. Which with all things considered most of the characters that are really strong in SFIV are characters that either blow up fireballs or don’t use them at all. It’s nice that Guile has decent fireballs except there’s no point to really use him. Gouken’s are decent but he’s just a weaker version of characters above him that don’t rely on projectiles at all. Dee Jay another character with a decent projectile game but still not much better than most of the other cast that doesn’t rely on them and there’s a lot of characters that still severely limit his ability to throw them.
It’s also nice that fireballs have decent hit/block advantage but what does that really matter when everyone the game is filled with tools to get around them? Which is why in tournaments everyone is just running to characters that don’t rely on them to win matches.
Fireballs are pressure tools only, or something to throw your opponent off…
Fireballs are inherently worse because you can’t use them to zone… while you can pressure and zone in SF4(fuck that game) and ST respectively…
Remy is probably the only character that can zone with them and that’s because he rapidfire his shit thanks to charge partitioning…
EDIT: @ BadLt… Twelve would absolutely suffer…
Twelve is nothing without a ex move handy… especially under pressure…
Yeah I believe ST is a much better game to compare when talking about fireball zoning. You don’t get a bunch of tools that simply bypass you from projectiles and land you damage and a knockdown instantly. Focus dash to throw and supers/ultras specifically giving you hard knockdowns.
Ok, fair enough, then let’s keep it relative. Compare fireball use of Ryu 3s to Ryu SSF4 AE. Fireballs are still more useful in SSF4 AE.
And there are really strong characters who use a fireball game to be strong. That’s neither here nor there though, the good characters in SF4 series are good for a variety of reasons.
Because if they didn’t have good hit/block advantage they would be practically useless…like in 3s.
I’m not really certain what this is supposed to mean. Fireball characters have been in the top 8 of every single SSF4 AE major I can think of.
I think you’ve lost sight of the discussion here. I’m not claiming SSF4 is a good game,(I think it’s an abomination) just that fireballs are better in that game.
They’re not ‘shitty’. The only character who uses them as an integral part of their gameplay is Akuma. And he is totally fine as is, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with his hadoukens.
Everyone else has them as a tool to use amongst many others. The time and place for projectiles isn’t the same in 3S as it is in other SF games. That’s all.
Any one thing does not define what 3S is, you can’t pick it apart. It’s a whole package, which is why the whole rebalance discussion is shit on 99% of the time. Targeting one quality of the game and wanting it to be reworked entirely has nothing to do with balance. You’re in the wrong place. Your posts can be simplified to “I like fireball zoning so 3S should be more about that.”
you’re right capcom could make anything they want happen so a strong old man sagat is possible,
yes so if i can parry a fireball and gain meter by doing so and it’s very easy to parry a fireball in 3s, that is not a bad option for the other player to do, i never said it was the only reason fireballs are poor in this game i said one of the games main mechanics can get rid of the fireballs with ease by even a crappy player.
the speed of fireballs in this game are very slow but the difference between ken and akuma’s fireballs is actually pretty decent in terms of a character who is supposed to have an okay fireball and a character who is supposed to have a fast fireball but they really could be a lot faster.
i’m really open to the idea of a rebalance i would enjoy seeing how they would buff and nerf characters. i guess we have different idea’s of what makes a rebalance in terms of adding or taking away characters, because last time i checked ST and HDR have the same amount of characters, they just have minor tweaks to the cast, and both are still ST in a lot of ways.
okay so using my example again on if i am a low tier character who needs meter and in i have a significant life disadvantage and the only way i can get that meter is by whiffing normals or risking getting beaten to get that meter by hoping everything goes my way, chances are i’m screwed. and it does actually retain to what i was saying because if people aren’t going to get a decent portion of there meter by whiffing normals and such they have less a chance to be able to hitcomfirm a super that could potentially help them vastly throughout a match. i see your reasoning for this but i don’t think it should be lowered drastically maybe 1/4 of the bar you get in 3s should be taken away if there was a rebalance
Would you prefer I said they don’t work as well in 3s as they do in every other SF? Semantics doesn’t change how lacking fireballs are in 3s.
Everybody has tools to deal with fireballs in SF4 series yet they are way more useful there. I talking about changing fireballs so that they are very useful most of the time instead of specifically.
It’s good that you know that. Changing fireballs would not change 3s into something else, it would simply allow certain characters to play a different style.
Two things -
Changing the frame data isn’t a complete rework it’s a tweak.
Perhaps if you read my original post you would have noticed that I didn’t target one quality of the game. - Conceptual 3S rebalance thread (keep rebalance discussion in here!)
Maybe you’re in the wrong place?
Do you understand why fireballs are easy to parry?
The difference in speed is negligible. Play a SF game where fireballs are very good and compare the speed differences. You will then see what I mean.
I am actually totally against rebalancing 3s (especially after how poorly HDR turned out), but since the question was asked…
You might want to check again.
HDR is missing the entire original roster.
I’m sorry, I expect a player to actually out play their opponent in order to generate meter.
I understand what you are saying, I just don’t agree.
fireballs are easy to parry because they are very slow which i already stated
i do play sf games where fireballs are good, i already said in 3s they are slow, the diference between ken and akuma’s fire balls ( to go along from the example on my last post) are relatively the same.
you still have the option to pick the original cast in classic mode so it is still there, so it has the original cast.
i have no problem with the fact you want a challenge, but most of the time with no meter and like i said a significant life disadvantage it won’t happen or at least not easily.
@Shin Seriously man…
This sounds like the perfect game for you…
Useful fireballs, frame advantage on hit…
3S mechanics + ST= SF4 the bastard step-son…
It’s not just that they are slow, it’s that the speed variation is too small. If you have fireball speed variation closer to ST they would be much more difficult to parry.
Classic mode is ST not HDR. I never said the characters were removed from ST I said they were removed from HDR. You cannot pick O Sagat in HDR. Part of HDR’s rebalance was removing the entire original cast.
If you as a player are in that bad situation it’s probably because you were out played and deserve to be there. I have no interest in making things easier for players who are losing. If you want it easy for being beaten we have the SF4 series for that.