Conceptual 3S rebalance thread (keep rebalance discussion in here!)

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
21

Man not much has changed, DevilJin and hold dat are still causing trouble :slight_smile:

I’m actually for a rebalanced Street Fighter 3 game. I rather it called 4th Smash or whatever that way the purist won’t complain. Not so much because I think the game is completely unbalanced but more so to breath life in a series that has not had a revision in 10+ years. I have a laundry list of changes that I will add to my favorite characters once I get the energy to write it out.

I think you can neatly divide the players who are for change vs those against as those who use top tier characters (those against change) vs those who use low tier characters (those in favor for change). :slight_smile:

Ninja Edit:

Ryu Revisions:
**Forward FP Change: **I never liked the fact that this move had the same parrying timing as Forward+MP. Players who option select parry Ryu’s overhead would also be able to parry this move. Ryu is also lacking a solid mid-high attack to help decrease his susceptibility to parry bait shenanigans. Here are the two major changes I would like to see:
**1. Make the two hits come out faster as well as decrease startup time. **

http://shoryuken.com/forum/file:///C:/Users/Samuel/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.png

In other words, return it to its Super Turbo glory. This will require the player to identify whether they are parrying Ryu’s overhead or this move. It will also help Ryu stop those players that option select parry --> throw on wakeup. If the two hits come out fast enough, players would have to parry both hits before they can throw or punish giving Ryu a more powerful mid-high game which he is sorely lacking.

2. Increase hit recovery. Right now, even after Ryu lands this move there is not much he can do afterwards which again limits its usefulness. I would love for Ryu to be able to continue the combo with not ex specials or maybe even a linked normal. Again, this will give Ryu some much needed pressure options.

Increase Recovery/Damage of Normal Fireballs (not intended for ex Fireballs): Right now, Ryu’s normal fireballs are probably the most useless special moves in the game. Incredibly easy to parry, and even when they do hit they do not cause enough damage to warrant the risk. Top that off with the fact that even if they do hit some characters can still super Ryu before he recovers (how does that make sense) and you have a pointless special. Here are my suggestions:
**1. Increase the damage and hit recovery of normal fireballs. **Being hit by a fireball should be considered a bad thing, not a minor inconvenience. I say double the damage that fireballs deal so that if an opponent actually botches the parry they are punished. I would also like for more recovery time to be added to those who are hit by a fireball so that Ryu is safe after a successful hit. Either that or decrease Ryu’s recovery time from throwing a fireball. Both are acceptable in my opinion.

**Make RH Donkey Kick Useful Again. **Has anyone found a use for Ryu’s RH Donkey Kick? Cannot be comboed, poor recovery frames on block, and painfully slow makes this move pointless.
1. Make it neutral on block. This will allow Ryu to have a way to close distance without burning EX meter. Since the move is very slow, I don’t think it will give him too much of an advantage. I see it more as a way to apply pressure much like how Ken’s forward MK is.

More changes to come.

22

change the damage on Ken’s FP to 12 from 13

bam, i just made 3s the perfect game

23

Street Fighter 3: 4th Down

New Characters
-Amalgamation of Rolento and Eagle
-An Exiled Student of Oro
-A woman

  • I’m out of ideas
24

I hope this is a joke. If it isn’t. Ugh.

The first part of what you said is fine and makes sense. I think everyone would be psyched to hear about a 4th iteration if it was being worked on by the same crew as 3S.

25

My ideas -

Genei Jin meter lengthened to medium size rather than small
Chun SA2 changed to one small meter
General frame data tweaks to most low tier characters
Remove whiffing on supers or overheads where they should obviously hit
Drastically reduce meter gain on whiff, increase meter gain on hits
Improve fireballs in general
Change many of the negative on hit normals to neutral on hit (negative on hit is such a stupid thing)
Reduce the amount of moves that can be dual parried (forward or down)
Add Sagat to the cast

26

i’m guessing you want fireballs to be improved so that sagat would be useful. you do realize sagat is alot older than most of the cast in the street fighter series, right? he would have be a lot weaker if you factor in that in sf story 3s is the farthest point, so old man sagat is what you want?

also third strike is the only sf game that fireballs aren’t useful, it makes the game unique from the rest, and alot of people like it that way because it makes it a much more offensive game and it keeps the action going instead of slowing down. how would you improve the fireballs? this is your opinion and i respect that, but the ones that i think make sense in your list have already been said the others don’t really help the game. fyi the reason you build that much meter on hit is because this game revolves on using your super meter a lot, if they changed that you wouldn’t see supers as often thus changing the game

27

Can someone just make a sticky thread titled “FIREBALLS ARE USEFUL IN 3S” so this myth can be dispelled.

28

Being old doesn’t mean you need to be weak in the SF series. In some cases you become so strong you need to fight in a handicapped state. (Oro)

3s is missing a fundamental aspect of SF - the ability to zone (well) My change would add an element of playstyle beyond cr mk xx super for the shotos and stay true to their roots.

Besides what makes 3s unique has nothing to do with shitty fireballs.

Less recovery, significant speed variation and at least make them neutral on block or hit.

You do understand the term “rebalance”? And your idea of what helps the game isn’t going to be everybody’s. I mean it’s kinda the point of this thread.

What? I suggested Drastically less meter on whiff and more meter on hit. This suggestion is to promote aggression. If Yun or Chun wants to get that devastating super my changes would cause them to engage the opponent more often to do so.

29

More tongue and cheek than anything :stuck_out_tongue:

30

That’s fair, but those are the characters I play against most of the time. I play Urien, and I’m pretty comfortable with where he is. I have very little practical experience with anyone else.

So what would you do?

31

sorry i worded that part wrong i mean’t they aren’t very useful for most characters

32

sagat isn’t like Oro he is not so strong that he has to only use one arm, he isn’t a very special fighter in the series so it would be rather hard to believe get stronger by being older

yes you’re right it isn’t what makes it unique, i should have been more clear parrying is what makes them shitty fireballs, and you can’t really do anything about parrying since it is a main mechanic of the game.

i can agree with less recovery and neutral on block, but they already have different speeds

yeah i understand it isn’t everybody’s point, but neither is the fact that you want sagat and having him doesn’t rebalance the game if they were to add him it would be a different version of sf3, making it a possibility for a fourth version same thing applies with changing how fireballs work it changes they would have to change everyone’s fireball to make it more useful.

with drastically less build on meter thats just less chances to get that poke into super which is how characters get most of there super setups and without meter characters like sean would have an even harder time winning matches because they couldn’t do hado burst when they got thier low forward.

your point about shotos is pretty valid they don’t really feel like your playing a shoto as if you were in sf2, but they also feel like they fit better in 3s in my opinion the way they are

33

Nothing. 3s is a decade old, if you don’t enjoy as it is, you won’t enjoy the game any more with a water downed patch. It might even frustrate you.

34

It’s been too long! how have you been? good time playing your Ryu back in the day

The changes you are suggesting for Ryu dont really take his supers and damage output into consideration though. If you increase his normal fireball hit stun/damage are you also going to lower the stun and damage on denjin or shinkuu? cuz if you dont denjin Ryu will be an unbelievably mobile brick. his damage output is high enough already plus give him the ability to combo into RH donkey kick? His punishements would be rediculous. and no one uses ken’s f.mk neither does anyone use his f.hk in high level play. so “rebalancing” shouldnt be just figuring out ways to make every normal useful somehow. if you did that then twelve would be unstoppable

ryu gets a jump in on someone and the match is basically over with all the hurting he’ll put on a stun bar and a life bar with RH donkey kick. if he stuns off of denjin fuggedaboutit. he’d be like a faster, more mobile hugo with better ways to do damage ESPECIALLY with denjin. if he got these changes you’d possibly have to lower his health

most suggestions should not be just to make offense better…my favorite scrub suggestion is in regards to alex’s c.mp. scrubs want to be able to combo off that poke without looking at how powerful that would make him. he wouldnt have to get in close as mush as he would need to…as a grappler should have to do

MALAGUENA!!! he’s bbaaaaaacccckkkkkk…lol

35

Says who? Creatively Capcom can spin it any way they like. If Gouken can lay under a pile of rocks for 15 years then Sagat can be strong and old.

Parry isn’t what makes fireballs shitty. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes fireballs good.

I didn’t say different speeds I said a significant speed variation. Currently a slow and fast fireball have very little difference in travel speed, that is in part what makes them bad.

Adding new characters to the roster is a form of rebalance, and any rebalance will make the game a different version of SF3.
(ST-HDR) If you don’t want a different version of SF3 then you are probably in the wrong thread.

The only difference reducing meter on whiff would cause is that players would have to engage each other if they wish to build meter faster. All that would change is the frequency of players running and whiffing to build meter. It has nothing to do with anything you are citing.

Perhaps you do not understand what my suggestion actually means?

Part of a rebalance I would like is adding more playstyle variety to 3s. Making shotos more classic would do that without encroaching on what makes SF3 series what it is.

36

At this point fireballs are more useful in 3S than they are in SFIV. Sitting there trying to regular parry down Akuma’s HP flame fireball just sets you up for a mix up. You’re better off just trying to red parry the last hit. Ryu’s EX hadoken is a great spacing tool due to the speed making it risky to parry on reaction or end up eating a knockdown to a dash up mix up. In the corner he can apply frame advantaged pressure with it easily with the rest of his corner mix up. Ken’s is a bit slower for zoning but still completely better for that purpose than it is in say SFIV because it actually knocks down on a hit. Akuma’s air fireball controls a lot of space and keeps Akuma in advantage long as it lands the correct way even on a parry.

Regular fireballs aren’t as good for long term spacing outside of Akuma’s air fireball, Remy’s booms or Oro’s and Ibuki’s fireballs in certain matchups but with EX meter most of the cast can do SF2 style zoning and baiting of jumps with their EX fireballs.

In SFIV on the other hand every character has basic built in tools like focus dashes that completely pass them through a standard fireball and instantly put them in range to land a bnb or throw. You can’t do that with anybody in 3S without burning a whole super meter and Chun Li is the only character with a super that can really make that threatning. This is on top of the fact that most characters have some type of special move or ultra move that completely passes through a fireball zone and nets them big damage. Sure you can parry down a standard or EX fireball from a range in 3S but that doesn’t mean you just get to get in or get a huge lead in the match of all of a sudden.

**The only thing that really shuts down fireball zoning in this game is Chun Li’s SA2 and Makoto’s SA2. **Though that requires them to build meter first and you can still play fake fireball games by whiffing jabs and shorts to bait them into throwing bad supers just like in SF2. Dudley can ducking through a fireball but it requires timing and he can’t just do it anytime he wants. He can’t ducking through Remy’s low fireball IIRC which is why Remy can be an annoying matchup for him.

I mean it’s kinda obvious that they slowed down the speed of regular fireballs and added in parries in part to make a game that was more offensive and less about lame fireball style spacing. With that, it’s not like you can’t use the fireballs to space at all and the parries aren’t just a free out of fireball pressure especially against Akuma, Remy or EX stocked Ryu or Ken.

** Back during the time that 3S was out there was so many other SF games to play that having another SF game that played ridiculously closely to the other older SF games just wasn’t really necessary.** If you wanted a game that had more of an emphasis on fireball zoning you played ST or Alpha 2. If you wanted a game that had a more more modern 2d fighter feel but didn’t like parries you played CVS2 or Alpha 3. If you liked parries and wanted a game that had more of an emphasis on close fighting you played 3S. Even then it’s not like there is no fireball spacing game in 3S. Very far from the truth.

You can see it in SFIV also how the game slowly geared from a game dominated by fireball zoning and spacing to a game more of offense and going in. Which for a game that was trying to emulate the feel of the classic SF while staying fresh kinda gets ironic. Fireball zoning was never so strong even in Vanilla that people just couldn’t get in ever. It required work to get around but most characters minus Honda had decent tools to get around. It was only really the Ryu fireball super cancel stuff that was really cheap and they already took that out. Though of course due to demand of average players they kept watering down fireballs and giving the other characters more anti fireball tools to the point where it doesn’t make sense to even pick projectile centered characters in SFIV anymore (except for Sagat who’s still strong enough of a character without the projectiles for it to be warranted).

37

wth?? Ryu is perfect lol. hes the most balanced character in the game . i wouldnt want any changes for him.

his fireballs are probably most useful in the 3s. theyre incredibly useful for denjin setups and are good chip damage.

RH donkey kick combos on crouchers by the way.

38

Not even remotely.

The only time fireballs are even partially good is if they are ex. Aside from odd examples like Akuma’s shaku on parry (which you have little reason to parry most of the time) they are pretty wretched compared to SF4 and even worse compared to SF2. Zoning with them is weaker, they offer little or no advantage on hit or block and speed variation is ass. For the most part they aren’t very good as a combo starter or ender. They lack virtually everything good that fireballs have in almost every other SF.

39

Actually, easiest fix for this game:
NOTHING is PUNISHABLE on HIT.

Bam!
Done.

40

Yeah but that’s pretty much offset by the fact that in SFIV you’re pretty much gambling your life anytime you throw a fireball once the opponent has an ultra meter or is using a character with a free pass through fireball manuever. Throwing a projectile against a character like Dudley, Adon, Bipson or Makoto (with Ultra 2) when they have any meter at all unless you’re like Guile is just an incredible risk now. The incredible amount of options you get to bypass fireballs pretty much offsets any power the fireballs actually have.

You get to zone up to a certain extend and then every fireball you throw after that really becomes a risk on the same level as SF3. The only fireball based character that is really doing anything worth talking about is Sagat and even he is rarely throwing tiger shots in most matches due to the sheer risk involved.

Especially when you watch stuff like the match between Andre’s Bipson and Daigo’s Ryu at SBV it’s just obvious that a lot of characters in pre AE Super just made the risk of Ryu’s fireballs just ridiculous. Like worse than the risk involved in 3S IMO. Anytime Bipson walks forward you have to worry about him focus dashing through a non EX fireball and getting blown up. Anytime Bipson is charging on downback or jumping backwards you’re pretty much forced to fight footsies with him or get a fireball stomped, EX psycho crushed or devil reversed on. Anytime Bison walks forward period you’ve got to worry about him s.MK or s.HK to footsie out your fireball. When every special move and footsie the character has is designed to just blow up fireballs it really limits the normal gameplan with fireballs to a point where it’s just not even worth putting out there at high level play anymore because of the risk.

No surprise Daigo is using Yun now when every other Tom, Dick and Harry character in the game has 13 tools plus focus dash to get around fireballs.