papasi’s videos should provide all the confirmation anyone needs that the 360 and esp. the PS3 version have additional input lag compared to CPS2 ST. It’s this input lag, and not any difference in speed, that everyone has been complaining about the PS3 version acting different above.
If 1-2 frames (the difference between 360 and PS3 HDR) could disrupt so many players’ timing, imagine how much 2-3 or 4 frames (the difference between 360 or PS3 HDR and CPS2 ST) could affect ST players. That’s no problem for folks wanting to stick to remix mode (since it’s technically a different game) but it shows classic mode isn’t accurate enough to stand in for ST for players deeply attuned to the timing.
Rufus: if you’re able to, please try the exact same tests as papasi (well, what NKI originally came up with when testing CCC2) and see if that’s also what you get. Not every action animates at the same moment so this is really a relative speed test on those moves. I worked with papasi to get some test controls down with frame-by-frame in Kawaks so if you find any differences running the exact same tests, feel free to post up.
FWIW, you really ought to specify the LCD you used.
The way I did the tests doesn’t actually involve a display of any kind. I don’t have all the bits to do VGA testing and I’m not sure I want to bother right now. I don’t have a PS2, PS3, Dreamcast, CPS-2 or any of the appropriate versions of the games available.
In practical terms, this seems mostly academic. For people who really care, superguns are not that expensive. Everyone else is going to have to try the versions, and make up their own mind if it matters, and any serious competition is going to specify what the exact version and platform of the game is going to be.
Yes, the test needs to be done END-TO-END. Earlier someone was testing fba’s input lag by using the cps2 system input test menu & emulator’s frame pause function.
He would go into the cps2 system input test menu, pause the emulator, hold a button down, forward 1 frame, and check that the input display on screen toggle from 0 to 1. And then claim that it is lagless.
But in practice that test is invalid.
i.e. The LCD might still need some time to process the digital signal sent from the console via the hdmi cable, even it claims that the panel has a response time of 2ms.
The PS3 is as worst as PS2 CCC2. I remember Gian canceled all his MM once he found out that is the version being used. I don’t think it is just academic because the timing difference really throw people off with the combo, etc.
And with 4 additional frames of delay, you have 4 less frames to react to moves, which is a big deal as well.
Since we have recorded the sf4 test using your ps3 the other day, I’ll try to do the same test on my xbox sf4 later and compare the result. I think it would be similar (1-2 frames behind)
the input lag is bigger in ps3 because Capcom creates games(all genres), first on xbox 360, then they port the game to ps3, is not the console itself, is the way how they port the game from one system to another.
You need to test the console versions on CRT. No matter the general opinion, people, including myself, still feel a difference when playing on so called lagless monitors compared to CRTs.
CRT is the only sure way to determine the lag of the system used.
Also the response time of a monitor has nothing to do with the input lag. The response time meassures how fast a pixel can go from 1 value to another and back again. High response times are the cause of ghosting efefcts and such. But it doesn’t meassure how fast the monitor responds to a signal.
Nah I’m not gonna bother. These tests are done with the setup that people ACTUALLY use.
PS3/Xbox360 + LCD are used in 99% of majors in the US. There is no point to test PS3/Xbox360 + CRT since no tourney in US is gonna switch to all CRT with PS3/Xbox360.
Same reason I’m not gonna test PC emulation output to CRT.
Have you tried playing PS3/Xbox360 with non-HD CRT TV? The text on the screen are unreadable…
Also I didn’t say they are pure input lag. It could be a combination of input/display lag on various systems/display. But in either case, you would see the animation changes X frames late on screen.
Well, to be fair you put up numbers of CPS2 to CRT numbers, which would be used even less than PS3/360 on CRT. Also, most tournies, big or small, won’t have arcade set-ups. We need to find the best solutions with what most people have.
Most local tournies around here use CRT TV’s. Plus lets face it, most ST and HDR tournies are going to be self-run, possible side tournies from here on out, and I think most of us would rather play it on CRT TV’s. I don’t think it would that hard to get a couple of the HDR guys going to a tourney to bring a 360 and a CRT TV (that’s what’s going on for the tourney in Indy that Silver is running).
A 360 plus CRT TV shouldn’t be any worse input wise than a DC for ST (which is what was used for years), and would be a lot more managable to set up.
I do think that arcade setup or supergun + CRT are used more than PS3/360 + CRT. Show me examples of tourney using PS3/360 + CRT. We can easily find examples of tourney with arcade ST or supergun setup.
I don’t know if you have tried setting up a sf2 tourney with these equipments, but in most cases CRT is your major problem since it’s hard to transport.
If I’m gonna have CRTs at the venue (ie. major problem solved), I might as well play it on the real thing with supergun instead of playing a console port. Does that make sense?
edit:
Final round will also run HDR on ps3 with horrible 4 additional frames of lags, sigh…
which is exactly his (and my) point…
You meant display lag. It’s not proven yet… it might not have ghosting issue. but there might be processing delay before the digital signal from hdmi cable is rendered on the LCD panel…
btw post above updated with xbox/ps3 ssf4 test. ps3 is 2 frames behind
Why would someone prefer to play HDR on a CRT when there are lightweight HD monitors that have been proven to have almost no input lag at all? Maybe cost I guess…
Here’s my 2cents, (which is worth a whopping $1500 in Monopoly Money) it’s called HDRemix…HDRemix. So yea…tests run on HD sets with HD cabling should be the benchmark for these tests.
Also, anyone keeping a running list of the potential HDR roster for Final Round? If not, I propose we start one. If you’re going, reply “I AM”
I actually play HDR on a CRT just because I like the size and I don’t like widescreen mode. I just can’t bring myself to buy a 27" monitor when I already have a CRT that’s still working fine.
I’ve been playing HDR on a small SD-CRT since release and all the text is perfectly readable.
Anyways the demand was for a test to determine the input lag inherent to 360/PS3 HDR. So all of that is irrelevant, the point is not what people use. The point is that to test something, you need to develop a method that will only detect that which you want to test. Your tests are unscientific, without eliminating other possible sources of lag your tests mean very little.
I’m not trying to be a dick but why are you being stubborn about this if the means to test it properly are readily available to you. Knowing the inherent lag of 360 and PS3 HDR is worthwhile information. Say the inherent lag of HDR on 360 is the same as DC. That would be great news for all of us who do not have the arcade game available to us. So please test HDR on CRT, I’d be very grateful if you did.
Capcom didn’t do it, Backbone did. For some reason the PS3 version seems to be more of an afterthought. Even Sirlin has railed on the PS3 version numerous times.
Based on NKI’s testing of the Dreamcast version, and the tests that I ran on the XBox 360 offline , the input lag is similar - the differences should be smaller than those caused by hitting buttons right after, or just before the game checked for input.
(To be clear: NKI tested on a CRT with an LED and a camera, so his results are effectively +/- a frame because of the camera’s frame rate. Up to the camera’s frame rate, the input delay seems to be the same.)
Yea to me HDR on CRT feels pretty much the same as DC.
My preference for non arcade (which face it, is a situation a lot of us are in) ST is HDR classic mode on SD-CRT with old sprites. It actually doesn’t look bad at all this way on a SD-CRT. HDR also fixed that weird delay after ROUND X sound that was in the DC i think.
If HDR is only game you got on xbox/ps3 then yeah maybe it’s fine.
Nope, the test is to determine the input/display lag of the whole setup. Not just the system.
Rufus’s test doesn’t go through the display, but the player can only rely on the display to tell if the move comes out. The test has to be done end-to-end to mean anything at all.
It has everything to do with what setup is being used by people out there.
If I want to go crazy I can also test it with 100" projector that people used for watching movie, no?
If you want to have a comprehensive combination of everything you’ll also need to get different sticks/pad, etc. You realize how much work that is going to be right?
I am not being stubborn but please realize there is only like 2% of people out there using that setup. There is no flying chance that tournament is going use PS3/Xbox + CRT, period.
If you don’t have arcade board / cab available to you, from the test above I’d say mame/fba are miles better than classic mode as it is still the real thing, but emulated. You can use CRT with PC if you really are not comfortable with LCD, but I really cannot bother to test PC+CRT either.
Like HadoKing said, if people want to play HDR, they will play it with new sprites, 16:9 with a HD display. Classic mode is a lost cause for ST heads as far as offline play is concerned (online it’s ok, as a lot of people just can’t play on ggpo/supercade).
[ Actually I did try to look for my composite cable that comes with my xbox yesterday night. But I might have thrown it away already…, and I don’t have the ps3 anymore]
