I’m pretty sure we’re talking about the same thing, but to be clear, lightingxxbuster isn’t punishable. BusterxxLightning is.
Yeah, Buster x Lightning isn’t really an issue. Lightning x Buster is the problem.
That being said, not sure I want to start throwing out raw S if I see Zero move after Buster, because if he did command dash down instead, I just died.
Right, you don’t see very many zero’s doing crap like busterxxlighting anymore so it’s not as important as it used to be.
Yeah punishing buster xx lightning is kinda irrelevant. You cant punish it on reaction so like Spiderdan said if they buster cancel into a different move that advances them forward, Zero will just hit you out of whatever move you used to punish the buster lightning you thought was coming.
Theres really no logic to fighting zero. You literally have to play 100% perfect whilst the Zero player is going nuts and making mistakes all the time.
The DERP in this game points at this thread and laughs.
Moved over from another thread.
Okami Shuffle doesn’t just erase all missiles and soul fists. Missiles tend to avoid the initial fire part then hit her before the ice even comes down. You have to react immediately to a missiles call IF you’re not already in blockstun or about to get hit out of it on startup. Plus you’re only going to catch Morrigan as she’s throwing a first fireball in the air, IF she doesn’t have 3 bars. Every other time, she can unfly to block. If she’s on the ground with a bar, there’s Shadow Servant. It’s not as good as you think it is.
Veil of Mist is good against Morrigan as it is against everyone, it makes her more susceptible to throws and makes it dangerous for her to call missiles lest Doom be punished. But all of these tactics require a lot of resources, so unless you’ve got a front-heavy team that doesn’t rely on meter much, you’re not going to find many situations to use them.
I play Doom/Ammy and I think they’re okay against Morridoom. The THC does keep them honest, but you can’t call it as freely against Morrigan as you can against others, and Doom’s only other option against the flood is SJ height fly H Plasma Beam. I think your best option is still to play a point character that can deal with Morrigan.
That’s why I suggest Zero on point with Ammy used as a battery with Solar Flare then Doom or Strange w/ their beam assists in the middle. Zero can do Zero bullshit to start the round while Ammy pumps up the meter. Zero can also build good meter and deal decent damage before a TAC into Strange who can just build 5 bars and kill. I think Strange’s Spell of Vishanti THC would take care of any missiles coming across from up high then the ice could cover the rest. It would be something to look into for sure. Either way if you were using it to DHC from it would clear the soulfists and then when the characters changed the Missiles would lose target. Veil of Mist DHCed into Double Zero or Vergil Devil Trigger could cause some major problems. I also think Ammy lets Vergil extend his combo’s after a helm breaker if you use cold star. Wolverine would probably work well too.
Also if you’re getting Morrigan to spend 3 bars just to keep herself safe and you are only spending 2 to do it then you have made a good move. Especially if she is already in AV because then it cancel’s her AV and wastes the level 3 essentially burning 4 bars. Strange also doesn’t have to approach like Doom so he can instantly mix her up in between the ice and lightning then again afterward without having to tri-dash in leaving himself open to Morrigan’s super. Just an idea w/ Strange but I think he fits the bill.
I’ve seen Chris G to fall Marlin’s Doom/Ammy THC (or just crazy lvl 3 Xfactor Ammy) more than anything else. It interrupts Chris G’s plan instantly and that is important.
Yeah THC or other meter based stuff with meter assist I’ve already theorized about in my blog. Nothing really new there. Just have to wait until someone makes a team around it at a high level of play. You pretty much have to have a meter assist or it’s not practical otherwise.
Well with Zero and a TAC to Strange or Doom you don’t really NEED a meter assist. But that goes back to getting the 1st hit and winning the rock paper scissors of the TAC. Strange’s assist would probably work out better than Doom beam because it is on the screen much longer and is broken into 2 pieces for extra mix-up potential.
I forgot who it was that just played Chris G recently, maybe even in Grand Finals set, who started w/ a Zero may cry I think and lost terribly the 1st round. He then switched to Zero/Morrigan/Doom and won 2 matches using Zero’s double super and Morrigan’s meter gain assist until Zero died and he then had Morrigan enter all loaded up with bars. I just don’t think it’s really worth the time trying to beat Chris G at his own Morri/Doom game. He is way ahead of the curve when it comes to using those 2 and a counter pick just needs to be found maybe just for Chris G and his Morri/Doom.
Either way Ammy can build the meter off screen to abuse her own THC when Strange or Doom comes in. MarlinPie should have looked into that some more or dropped Viper because she eats all the meter w/ EX moves instead of building it. Zero builds meter, only really needs a beam assist to be effective, is top tier and can use extra meter effectively if you build enough during the fight. It’s either something relatively along these lines that is going to be best designed for dealing w/ Morri/Doom or playing and besting Chris G at the Morri/Doom game that is going to beat him.
The 1st team I built in UMvC3 was a Zero/Doom/Ammy team before the Chris G rape train. I may have been on to the solution before the problem presented itself.
Viper does better against Morri/Doom than Zero any ways because her meterless zoning is more effective against it than Zero (meaning she doesn’t have to go in as much) and with meter assist you have constant access to EX knuckle which beats the durability of her projectiles. Her typical zoning game shoots faster, has better durability and fires at all of the angles needed to throw off Morri/Doom pre AV if she’s starting the round. If she tries to mash on AV Viper’s laser or H seismo can hit her out of the start up and force her to burn a meter unnecessarily. In general Viper can take care of the Morri/Doom stuff without spending meter, but no Viper player has strengthened their zoning game with her well enough (that regularly plays against Chris G) to make it a regular tactic.
She can easily force Morrigan into a position where she has no choice but to rushdown or DHC into another character (and that’s without Viper needing to spend any meter herself really).
Plenty of characters can deal with Morrigan’s zoning outside of AV; Dorm with basically any beam assist can swallow her up easily. AV is the problem.
Call me Crazy but almost every game I watch a Viper against Chris G’s Morri/Doom she is just cannon fodder or meter burning. Zero can also use DHC from both of Ammy’s super’s way more effectively than Viper and I think with Strange’s Bolts to control the entire lateral area(she can just duck them but that leaves her at a disadvantage) Zero can Lightning X Buster, Teleport, Airdash… and keep mobile while Ammy is pumping in the meter gain.
Even though I think Zero fits very well with the some of the meter using tech for later in the match lets say Viper is the best character for point in this situation. If you are using Ammy as a battery she can throw out her EX moves much more readily. Is there anyone who could replace Doom? Does Strange have any good tech w/ Viper? Who else can works well with the Ammy DHC, is there anyone with with a better super to start the lock down on Morrigan? Or who can ensure Doom’s missiles are removed and he is punished severely?
I don’t want to start an argument on which character each of us thinks is better suited for point or whatever, I just think we need to develop something using deeper analysis of team use than that of single character usefulness.
Stupid idea: Modok/Dr S or D/Ammy.
As stupid as I think Modok flying to the top of the screen to avoid the Morrigan barrage is in itself, how many times can he call Ammy for meter while Morrigan wiffs Soulfist’s? Morrigan won’t be building meter with Modok up in the corner but he can be gaining a ton of meter w/ an Ammy battery. His THC is also probably quick enough to use and he might be able to extend Ammy combo’s well if need be.
When MODOK is flying at the top of the screen, he can’t protect Ammy. Bloom stays out a bit longer than Dark Harmonizer. She’ll get bodied by Astral Vision.
Dormammu/Jam Session ruins her world.
That’s the thing. That’s why I think she’ll be forced to a second spot position in the future because there’s too many ways to make teams that can blow her up if she’s in the first spot before AV can get started. It’s just people need to adopt other stronger zoning or anti zoning teams and beat her to the punch on it so she can’t safely AV. She has to be on the ground to activate AV and if your zoning game beats hers before then she is forced to rush and do risky stuff which will further give you opportunity to open her up or chip her out.
That’s because none of them play Viper correctly from a distance and her zoning game is all kinds of untapped in general. She has a lot of zoning tools that eventually point Morri won’t be able to compete with. Viper in general is being played at a low potential level in the neutral and will change in a lot of people’s eyes as the game goes on.
Modok can call out Ammy 4 times during his flight and that is just with waiting for the original to end and starting flight. I think you could easily move around up top to keep Ammy safe with a little practice. The clone is firing equal distance from you as Morrigan is so if you don’t have to worry about dodging them you can effectively choose where they come down. That and Ammy has a really really small hurtbox which helps some. Though Soulfists have a big ass hit box… Modok’s shield could be dropped before you start flight for some calls. He also has a down forward laser that can take care of diagonal soulfist to keep Ammy safe.
Or just say screw it all and the best bet is Morri/Doom vs Morri/Doom, does Vergil really add to the composition of tech in that team? I don’t think so, he is just Chris G’s scrub call lvl 3 xfactor bail out. So replace Vergil with Ammy. Now you get the Morri/Doom shell and the BFF Doom/Ammy the THC to reset the momentum and go for mix-ups. You then you could Ammy as a battery for Morrigan or let her and Doom do work and save up that meter.
Actual exploration of new ideas is needed here. The main competitors don’t change up their teams very much without some damn good reasoning.
Moving around doesn’t keep Ammy safe because you ceded all control of the match in exchange for keeping MODOK safe. With the exception of an Air Psionic Blast (which is so diagonally skewed that no one should get hit by it) he has no way to protect the assist without falling back down.
Why are you so convinced that Amaterasu is the answer anyway? There are plenty of teams that you can build around meter gain that are far stronger than a THC-centered team. And if you wanted to build a THC-centered team to beat MorriDoom, then you should be using the Magneto/Dante THC instead.
Ammy’s meter boost is much slower than Morrigan’s. The real net result of this strategy is that Morrigan just throws slow-ass soul drains on the ground, Ammy builds 30% for you, then gets hit and that 30% is immediately drained to Morrigan (and Ammy takes damage). This dog won’t hunt.
Yes. Rapid Slash pushes the opponent to fullscreen (which has obvious utility for zoning teams) and, just as importantly, anchor Vergil affects target strategy. With Ammy in back, there’s a much greater chance of people burning meter (snapbacks) or XF just to try to kill Morrigan or Doom and break apart the team. XF3 Vergil derp in the wings discourages (or if not, then equalizes) such strategy.
Keep in mind that Morrigan, being a meter-hungry character, is not likely to die in a situation where Doom is going to inherit a lot of meter. And Ammy vs. Vergil as anchor is not really a contest.
bumping this thread up so it gets more attention.
@Merkyl999x should use one of the reserves to keep a hit list of problem situations. Would give this thread some much needed focus.
Yeah, sorry, been slacking a bit lately. RL blowing up my forum time.
Def. a good idea, though sjohn. Let’s get a few posts focused specifically on problem situations and I’ll get a list going.
Try and be as specific as possible and try to provide the inputs for whatever situation is giving you trouble. Keep in mind that this thread is meant to be more practical-counter oriented. As much as I love theory talk and team building, I want to try to steer this forum from just talking about possibilities into going into the lab and testing out the theories you have on counters. Record MorriDoom on a few Soul Fist spam loops and show me the MODOK + bloom lameout plan, even if it’s just a crappy handcam video. That’s what this forum is supposed to be.
Remember to give inputs! I think it’s safe to assume that the people that are trying to break these things aren’t going to be the ones abusing them in matches so we’re going to have to be resourceful. If you’re having issues working out the specific inputs for a setup, try to find a video of someone doing it so someone else in the forum can help out.
This is what I have so far. Let me know what else is giving you issues.
X23 = Beating unassisted Dirt Nap, Throw punishing Talon Attack Ms and Neck Slicers. (I’ll throw my girl under the bus to end people doing bad setups/pressure.)
C.Viper = Beating Focus Attack setups (Incoming/Resets)
Rocket Raccoon = Beating bad Mad Hopper + Boulder > Hard Tag Setups.
Firebrand = Beating Snap > Unblockables.
Dante = Beating Stinger + Assist > Teleport.
Zero = Beating/Negating/Blocking his Incoming game. Punishing his neutral game. Beating Zero + JS.
Doom = Beating foot dive, Beating/Avoiding hidden missiles.
Vergil = Dealing with spiral swords, Beating raw Rapid Slash, Killing Vergil before he can touch the ground (abusing his lack of incoming options).
Morrigan= Beating AV + Hidden Missiles (‘The Morridoom’), Beating Shell Kick.
Wolverine = Beating B.Slash plus Assist. Beating Dive Kick.
Nova = Beating Dolphin Kick Pressure.