Command throw stuff

[Fulaani]

You cannot throw on the last frame of block or hit stun. You must throw in your first frame AFTER you are out of stun. And if Honda times his command throw on the very first frame that you recover then he will throw you almost every time if you try to reversal throw.

You can throw one frame before you are fully standing after waking up because there is a special recovery frame during all wake up animations that allows attacks and throws to come out while you are invulnerable yet fully standing (this mechanic is what allows normal throws as reversal to beat meaty attacks). That special frame does not exist coming out of hit or block stun as far as I’m aware. This is why when a character tick throws in a mirror match and the opponent performs a reversal throw the outcome is always 50/50.

Just test it with Zangief against Dictator. Get as close to Dictator as you can, tick him, and perform an SPD so that the active grab frames directly overlap with Dictator’s first frame out of block (or hit) stun. Make sure that the tick leaves Zangief within Dictator’s throw range. Now try to reversal throw with Dictator and see how often your reversal throw actually works. The reversal throw from Dictator should almost never work.

I’m pretty damn sure that when someone throws he always grants the opponent the ability to throw first, on reversal frame.

I’ll stick to that understanding unless someone with some serious authority says otherwise or if everyone here will tell me I’m wrong.

[blitzfu]

I’m pretty damn sure that when someone throws he always grants the opponent the ability to throw first, on reversal frame.

I’ll stick to that understanding unless someone with some serious authority says otherwise or if everyone here will tell me I’m wrong.

I have also heard a lot of people say this. But I’m not sure it’s correct.

This is how I understand it:

Say an attacking character does a cr Short on a defending opponent. The defender will be in blockstun for 11 frames. He will be in an unthrowable state until the 11th frame, at which point he will be able to throw the attacker on the 12th frame. But the attacker will also be able to throw the defender on the 12th frame. It doesn’t make sense that the attacker will be unable to throw until the 13th frame IMO. Both players should be able to throw each other on the 12th frame.

Wakeup reversal throws are different, as the defender is going from an invincible state into a reversal throw on the 1st vulnerable frame. But blockstun is not an invincible state, only unthrowable.

At least that’s how I understand it. However, I could be wrong.

[parabellum]

My personal opinion: Best defense to a command throw is DON’T BE THERE.

If you do get command grabbed, your mistake occurred when you got that close to them, not when you got grabbed. Getting grabbed was the second and less important mistake.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn’t realize this was an HDR thread, but I think the idea is still very much valid.

[VirtuaFighterFour]

This is how I understand it:

Say an attacking character does a cr Short on a defending opponent. The defender will be in blockstun for 11 frames. He will be in an unthrowable state until the 11th frame, at which point he will be able to throw the attacker on the 12th frame. But the attacker will also be able to throw the defender on the 12th frame. It doesn’t make sense that the attacker will be unable to throw until the 13th frame IMO. Both players should be able to throw each other on the 12th frame.

The person who is in blockstun for 11 frames will be unthrowable for all of those 11 frames. He will only be throwable on the first frame out of blockstun (or on the 12th frame after being hit). “Until the 11th frame” implies that the 11th frame is throwable when it is not because it is still blockstun . I think you meant “until the 12th frame” (or on the first frame after recovering from stun which would be the 12th frame after being hit) but your language is unclear though I think you have the right idea.

But yes, if you are ticked, you can throw on the very first frame that you come out of hit or block stun. However your opponent can also throw you on that first frame as well, because you will be grounded and have vulnerable hit boxes. So if you both throw at the same time, after one player has come out of stun, the game will randomly choose which character gets a throw, and which one gets a standing normal attack by default (and therefore loses in that situation and gets thrown).

Wakeup reversal throws are different, as the defender is going from an invincible state into a reversal throw on the 1st vulnerable frame. But blockstun is not an invincible state, only unthrowable.

Correct, wake up throws as reversals are different from reversal throws coming out of stun. But the reversal throw from a wake up is not done on a vulnerable frame, it is done on an invulnerable frame. This iis illustrated quite nicely in T.Akiba’s frame data.

http://nki.combovideos.com/data.html#antobi <- scroll down until you see ‘Reference data: Speed of Getting Up’

See how wake up animations all are listed as being xx.5 frames? The reason that wake up animations are listed with half-frame values is for this reason: on the very last frame of your wake up animation, you are registered as standing (and therefore can throw, because everyone but Zangief must be standing to throw), but you are also invulnerable. So a property of wake up animations gives you a full frame to throw your opponent while standing while also being completely invincible. It is this property of wake up animations that allow for reversal throws to beat meaty attacks (providing that the reversal throw is within range).

I hope this makes sense.

Edit: lol at Parabellum

[blitzfu]

That’s true VFF, the 1st frame after wakeup is invincible, not vulnerable. Thanks for catching that. And I also meant the 11th frame being unthrowable.

[alex6x6x6]

Yeah, there’s no such thing as throw priority. A lot of people think there is, i.e. “Bison always throws me after I block scissors/crusher, his throw priority is ridiculous!” Even SPD’s/Ochio have no priority over a normal throw, just better range. If Gief ticks Ryu with say, three cr. jabs, Ryu will not get the counter throw no matter how perfectly timed, as Gief is out of his range, so SPD wins. However, if he ticks with one jab at point blank, you have a perfectly equal chance to throw him, even vs. SPD. At that point it comes down to who enters their throw more precisely, and if they’re both on the same frame, it’s random 50/50. Just as Thelo’s test demonstrated.