I see where you’re coming from but this is NOT a comeback mechanic. These are options that are available to you from the start of a round, and if you’re better than the other player, you are supposed to be able to use them as many times as you’re able to win. You don’t gain access to more powerful techniques than your normal moveset by being subjected to a beatdown.
You might be able to use them to stage a comeback, but if you look at it that way, you could stretch this definition to include just about anything. Seth’s zoning is a comeback mechanic because he takes one combo and is almost dead but then gets you out and wins?
Noone mentioned anything about getting something more powerful than your normal moveset. Perhaps extra tools and extra options and, depending on the character, MAYBE a high damage attack, but then that’s all dependant on the game and the characters.
And yes, Zangiefs’ high health is a very simple, subtle comeback mechanic. It’s the same as having a 900 stamina character enter a ‘stoic’ mode on his last 100 health which causes it to last 4 times as long as usual.
EDIT:
Yes. So what’s the problem? What is actually ‘wrong’ with having your character reach their’ full potential, or to gain an additional option somewhere further down their’ healthbar?
Supers/EX attacks are the same. They give most characters extra options that they normally wouldn’t have without the charge.
I’m actually going to stop arguing with you after this because I do agree with you in a general sense, in that they could be ok but aren’t handled with any finesse in SF4. I like TvC’s mechanics but I won’t go into that, and even have some problems with those.
Supers/EX attacks are different because they reward you for doing well. Unless you’re playing a game like 3s where you can just meter, or like SS where you get meter for being attacked, supers are something you need to be doing well to build meter for. This actually makes the game more in favor of attacking characters, which is why a lot of people like it in ST, because it rewards you more for going on the offensive instead of being a turtle all the time like in older SF games.
Why not change the existing Ultras so they require a full Super Meter as well as the Revenge Gauge? This will allow for the “really big super” design they have been given.
To compensate for them now being practically impossible to combo, have FADC use part of the Revenge Meter. A Full Revenge meter plus Full Super meter will still allow any of the current Combos into Ultra which require FADC. It will hurt the ones that require EX meter mind you. Moving the FADC cost to the Revenge Meter will actually make super moves more viable because players will be less reliant on the Super Meter as a resource.
Give characters another move which offers a much smaller advantage which uses the Revenge Meter. Character dependent buffs to defense or power, healing, extra moves, etc, a combo break move, etc.
Also, give players a bit more control over gaining meter. As I stated earlier, have Revenge fill up a little when you Tech out of Throws. Lends itself more to skill and rewards technical gameplay. As is; right now it is often smarter to let some moves connect just to build meter, it makes more sense to reward people who have technical defensive skills. They already reward blocking with a Focus Attack.
Blue bursts (defensive bursts) were made better (faster start up). It made previously burst-safe strings not burst-safe anymore, and now it requires a bit more “yomi” to bait properly. Blue bursts are also techable now at any height they hit you, meaning you can air tech even after getting hit by one on the ground (meaning opponent doesn’t score a free knockdown).
In case some people were wondering, GG bursts work like this: start with burst, you gain 33% burst meter when they hit (offensive bursts aka gold bursts always give back 33% burst no matter what), lower hp means your burst meter recovers faster, taking damage recovers burst meter. Blue bursts occur when you’re in hit stun, block stun, or on the ground. Blue bursts also have vulnerability frames on the way down and when landing (gold bursts do not). Gold bursts only occure when you are in neutral state (i.e. not in hit/block stun). Burst meter carries over between rounds.
Now it may sound like the system rewards you for doing poorly (low hp and taking damage means it recovers faster), but that really isn’t the case. The chances of getting two bursts a round is very low, usually meaning you burst within the first fifteen seconds of the round and the round drags on to past 30 seconds or so. Anyways, the system works out in the end because the meter still recovers slowly, and you can be punished for sloppy bursts or if the opponent reads them. It’s a temporary “get off of me” mechanic that can get you out of a tight spot (or put you in a worse one), but it doesn’t completely turn the tide of the round if it’s successful.
To answer your second question, I would think a good comeback system would be desirable than none at all, although I think it more has to do with the game. A burst system works well for games like GG because those kinds of games focus heavily on being aggressive. A burst system for a game like SFIV wouldn’t work out too well (not to mention SFIV is way too simple for a complex system like that).
The ultra system in SFIV just rewards you for getting beat up and nothing else. Personally, I think the system needs tweaking, but I’m not entirely sure how it should be balanced out. The game would probably be better off without an ultra meter with the way they currently work.
Thanks for the clarification. I liked the Burst system and an upgrade to defensive burst wouldn’t hurt too much.
My argument would be that the burst system isn’t a comeback mechanism, imo. It’s available to you at the beginning of the round and you can use it offensively, defensively, and whenever the hell you want. You can be beating the crap out of the other guy, run up, and do an offensive burst just for the hell of it. It’s not like Rage or Ultra, where you actually get rewarded for getting hit. Yes, it fills up faster when low on life, but like you pointed out it’s rare to get two bursts in 1 round so it’s not much of a comeback at all. That’s just my take on it.
I was being sarcastic. I personally think it’s funny that people complain about how stupid it is to get meter for being damaged all of a sudden even though they have been doing it for years. No body seemed to think it was a big deal until now. It’s not that getting meter for making a mistake is stupid (for the most part) it’s how much meter you get. you get too much Ultra meter for being hit in SF4.
that was overshadowed by the fact that most of the meter being built was likely because of you hitting the opponent (or also by whiffing moves in 3s which is just as bad as getting meter for getting hit). Ultra meter relied solely on you getting hit for it to build. Compared to a 150 point super bar that only got 1-2 points of super gained per attack.
Well that’s why I ended the original post with with something along the lines of “The difference is mainly in the amount of meter you gain” or something to that effect. I really think Ultra needs to reverse Focus and hit meter gain. You should get more meter for focusing then for getting hit. I just think it’s funny that it’s suddenly this massive blasphemy to earn meter for getting hit when it’s never been a problem before.
You can whiff grab in Alpha3 as well for quite a bit of meter per grab attempt.