721

Almost certainly possible, though it might only work when the SBK is a reversal.
http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/chunli/sbkforward.html

722

Thanks for clearing it up for me, I really love the new option of showing hitboxes in SF2HDR.

723

I’m looking for some help versus Zangief. I figured since this is supposed to be a 6-4 fight I’m obviously doing something wrong.

First of all, I’ve pretty well accepted that I have to fireball him to death. If I try to walk up, I can sometimes get a st. hk to hit, but it’s really hard to footsies with only one move, since lariat seems to beat everything else. If I try to jump in, then he can just lariat me out of the air. If I attack early enough to hit the lariat, then I get SPDed or low grabbed when I land. The low grab also means that all I can get out of a knockdown is some chip damage from jump-in, cr. mk xx LL because there is no throw/low mixup. I guess I could try cl. hp xx Kikoken for more pushback, but less damage.

Part of the problem is that I keep getting cornered while trying to keep my distance. If I stomp to get over him, then he just does a j. mp to swat me out of the air, giving him a free knockdown. I’ve tried stomping again to beat the mp, but it seems to still lose cleanly.

The real problem is that I can’t seem to find a good punish for his lariat. I can usually nail him with my super if he lariats a fireball from far enough away, but that usually isn’t enough to stop his approach. If he sees that he missed hitting me from close up, then he just lariats backwards and my cr. hk whiffs. Thus, he can just spam lariat in front of me until he gets into SPD range, at which point I have to jump back (losing a lot of ground) to avoid the SPD because I can’t walk backwards due to the lariats holding me in block.

724

I’m not the greatest chun player out there, but are cr.hk and cr.mk not good footsie tools against gief?

725

If your cr Roundhouse whiffs, there’s three things you can do:

-walk forward again and cr RH again, Zangief’s Kick Lariat is only un-sweepable for the 1st rotation, and Chun can recover fast enough to walk slightly forward and either hit or block with her sweep or cr Forward.

-neutral jump Short or Roundhouse to catch his jumpin attempt after the Lariat, or just empty jump to keep from being SPD’d

-Lightning Legs, if he tries to jump in, you should be charged for the Upkicks, SBK and Kikkoken by then, so use one of those to anti air him, depending on the spacing, mostly Upkicks though

And don’t forget that if you’re out of range to sweep his Lariat, then he is out of range to SPD you. Meaning if your sweep whiffs, and the Zangief players backs up to get out of range of your sweep, then you don’t have to worry about SPD. Just hold your ground and see what he does next, or just start zoning with Kikkokens again. Zangief can be tricky, but he’s not as tough as Hawk IMO.

726

VS Zangief I have one Golden rule. #1. NEVER jump in at him ever!
Try to hold your ground don’t back yourself into the corner, if he lariats c.mk x2 if he jumps s.mk close from far s.hp or s.hk if you get in the corner the only jump you should do is either straight up l.k or head stomp to aerial SBK away. I like to punish his rush in with LL’s I’ll push him in to his corner with c.mk x3 as he comes forward punish him with c.mk or c.hk. it can be a long match if the Gief is patient but just wait it out he has to come to you especially if you chip away at him with kikoken’s. Try to avoid you super through his lariat until you know the difference between his 2 different lariats. One he grunts the other he doesn’t one you can hit the other you can not. If you hear a grunt it’s safe to Super otherwise c.mk instead. Hope that helps

727

My goal as Chun in this match is to bully Zangief into the corner. This is for one reason only: You do NOT want to be the one that’s cornered!

Fireballing Gief to death is not quite right…The threat of a fireball should be your main tool, but not your main source for damage. But, you have to be tricky about it. My best advice is to throw a lot of jabs while charging your fireball. Now, Gief won’t be able to deal with the fireball with a kneejerk reaction anymore.

This accomplishes two things:

  1. You can now bait him into doing the wrong thing at the wrong time, whereas otherwise, he’s baiting YOU into doing the wrong thing at the wrong time.

  2. You can now throw fireballs safely to push Gief back, cos he’ll have less of a chance of reacting to it properly with Banishing Punch or Lariat, or even jumping over it.

If you want to pressure Zangief with normals, walking up with C.Hk is okay sometimes, but just concentrate on zoning with C.Mk for the most part. This is because C.Mk reaches farther and recovers faster. The fast recovery is very important; if Gief jumps at the exact moment you throw your attack, you’ll now have time to edge forward a smidge and do Close S.Mk as an anti-air. Or, if he’s jumping from far away, you can respond with an immediate Neutral J.Hk.

You’ve asked for a counter to Lariat, as you’ve pinpointed this is a central problem. I would say, you’re looking at this the wrong way. The Lariats are not doing to do big damage to you. He won’t be able to hit you with one on the ground unless you try and throw a fireball from point blank (and if you are doing this…don’t). Otherwise, if you walk up to do a move and he avoids by moving backwards with a Lariat, just throw a fireball so that he has to block it as soon as he recovers. This is a win/win for you; he avoided damage, but now he’s going to get pushed back, which is your real goal. In the psychotic situation that he tries to avoid your normal by going TOWARDS you with a lariat, just repeat the move again. You’ll learn to be charging back in these cases, so that if your C.Mk if avoided by Lariats, you can just do C.Mk xx Fireball if he tries to go towards you.

Another big thing that I don’t see other Chun players do is…when you knock Zangief down, do a jumping meaty combo. I prefer J.Hk / C.Mk xx Kikoken. The purpose of this is not necessarily to deal damage, but more importantly, you’ll push Gief back a ton by doing this. And, the best thing about it is, there’s virtually no risk for you at all! Think about it: Gief can’t reversal SPD you in mid-air. The only thing he can do about this is try a reversal Lariat, but those are extremely difficult. You can’t use the piano method for a reversal Lariat (well you can, but you only get two attempts out of it instead of six), so his chances of actually landing one are slim. Better yet, the meaty combo I suggested will dizzy an opponent, so if he fails, he’s going to eat a dizzy combo, lose a ton of life, and be backed up into a corner. Doing a meaty jump-in combo is extremely low risk/high reward. Learn it. Love it. And, in any other situation, refer to Voltech’s golden rule, lol.

728

Thanks for all the advice. While unfortunately I haven’t been able to find any of the Zangiefs that were giving me issues before, I did beat all the ones I fought that weren’t lagaporting into me. Throwing jabs seemed to help a bit with spacing, as well, since I can back charge without walking back or crouching, but the big thing seemed to be that I was severely underestimating how long the kick lariat’s foot invincibility lasts and overestimating how much reach it has. (Time to break some bad habits…) I really need to work on my mk anti-airs, though.

729

Here’s a video I took last night with a beastly Gief (Snake Eyes) maybe this will help maybe not [media=youtube]FN7bpJ9FnYg"[/media] This video was broken in many parts and Gief won most of the matches but this was a few wins I stole off of him :wink:

BTW I broke my Golden rule :frowning: but hey sometimes you gotta break the rules right :stuck_out_tongue:

730

Thanks, VOLTECH. From the video it looked like he wasn’t doing many point-blank lariats. I’m starting to think that I was just encountering one of those brick walls that people keep throwing at you until you figure out how to deal with it, so it doesn’t wind up happening in high-level play. Also, it seems like you can actually do some footsies, which I really need to start doing instead of just trying to punish fireball counters. Lastly, it didn’t seem like he was knocking you out of the air with j. mp after you used the stomp on him. Is there some sort of timing or jumping angle that you can use to avoid being swatted like a fly?

731

Sorry about the double post. I figure that it’s been long enough, though.

I’ve been working on the HDR wiki for Chun Li and I figured I’d ask some of the more experienced Chun players to make sure I’m not spreading any incorrect information. I could also use some help with some of the match up information and a lot of the stuff on the ST wiki doesn’t apply any more.

732

we gotta bring this back from the grave wheres my chun players @ i’ll post up my matches from SCR this past weekend i would love feedback

733

I’ve been hoping this thread would come back.

As for the two matches that were on the stream, it was kind of sad to see how your Chun matches ended. First Bob Painter SPDs too early when he would have won, then you lose a match to Daigo because of air SBK, then again because your super didn’t come out. I also found it kind of interesting how much Seth freaked out about both you trying a safe Neckbreaker against Zangief and you not anti-airing Guile that one time. Either way, good work making it as far as you did with just Chun and Cammy.

I’m probably doing it wrong, but I like being a lot more aggressive against Gief, so I’ve had to put together some tricks to keep an offense going. On a knockdown, I do a jump-in that will hit the Lariat’s startup, then I can follow it up with either a throw, a Neckbreaker to beat counterthrows, or a crouching attack to beat jumps (or to just be safe). You can, of course, follow a cr. short with a Neckbreaker or throw for a further mixup. The Neckbreaker loses to a neutral jump jab and a backwards Lariat, but if he’s cornered, he can’t go backwards, so the Lariat still loses. If you throw him and he techs, holding straight up will lose if he does a perfect reversal SPD, but I think you can get a Neckbreaker out fast enough to avoid it and hit his whiff, and if his reversal isn’t perfect, you can HK him for a knockdown.

I’ve also been working on some pseudo-crossup Neckbreaker shenanigans. There is a timing that you can do a Neckbreaker that will either hit them with the Neckbreaker on the very last frame, or if you time it just earlier, land on the opposite side of them. At this point any attack that hits them will need to be blocked in the opposite direction. Against some characters, like Zangief, this attack, if done immediately, will go the wrong way, even though the inputs are in the correct direction. Your most likely attacks to hit the wrong way is cl. hp and instant overhead head stomp. The head stomp is probably your best bet here, because it hits overhead and sends you flying away from your opponent because it is backwards. Against other characters, like Guile and Ryu, your attacks will go the correct direction, so you’ve got a full selection of ground normals to try. Probably the most reliable way to practice this is by doing a point blank Neckbreaker, jumping backwards, then doing another Neckbreaker right when you land. Against most characters, this will just barely make it to the other side and land before they recover, but if you hesitate at all, it will usually be a safe Neckbreaker that pushes them back into you after you land on the opposite side of them.

I’ve also been working on some combos. I haven’t gotten it to work reliably, (partially because I suck at combos) but I’ve found what I think qualifies as a TOD on at least Fei Long in the corner. D. j. hk, cl. mp, cr. mk xx fireball. Make sure you hold the mk so you don’t accidentally NE into a SBK. There’s also cross up d. j. hk, cl. mp, cl. mp, st. hp, but it doesn’t quite TOD Zangief. Finally, the most impractical TOD ever: lp fireball, walk forward a few steps, d. j. hp, cl. hp xx fireball. I’m sure I could mess around with it some more to make it not sometimes dizzy on the cl. hp, but it’s mostly just funny to see it work in training mode. You might be able to get it to work on someone who is already half dead, dizzy, and in the corner? In that case you could replace the last fireball with a super for extra damage, which is close enough to 100% that it shouldn’t be possible to dizzy them with more health than that.

I don’t know how much trouble other Chun’s are having with Fei, but I’ve got a couple things I’ve been trying to help that fight. One, option select throw/SBK (cancel the throw whiff into SBK) after blocking his Chicken Wing, especially if you block more than just the last hit. If he doesn’t Chicken Wing again or Flame Kick, you’ll throw him. If he does, your SBK should beat his move cleanly or trade at an advantage for you. The other thing is to do a safe jump or neckbreaker such that you wind up outside his throw range but inside yours, then do an OS throw/SBK. I haven’t found a reliable set up for this yet, though. I’ve had limited success with doing a “cross up” Neckbreaker, followed by a cr. short to get the right range, but it takes extremely strict timing.

734

yea i missed couple of things in my top 8 matches i hate the accidental spinning bird kicks i get sometimes its very annoying and also when i try to jump lk to anti air geif i get air spinning bird kick its sucks… and yea i heard seth saying that the neckbreaker is dangerous against gief but i think its a great too against him. Against kurropi my game changes alot though because he knows my chun we have played against each other for years and we blind picked cause i knew he was gonna go with gief so i tried to play the cammy game but missed alot of stuff…

I need to see like a video sample of what your talking about, beating the chicken wing i have a hard time against it i fucking hate it…

735

Cauldrath - I try to stomp on Gief so it will bounce 2x before I SBK away, sometimes I’ll wait until he try’s to sweep me and stomp last minute on his toe. Not always safe but it’s worth it if you can escape the corner. I also try and sweep Gief as much as possiable if for nothing else than to push him back into the corner. Just gotta be careful not to whiff or let him jump in. I’ve found that S. LP will smack him out of the just about every jump in even the splash jump in but I need a better answer to his superman punch.

Cesar - I feel you, I’ve lost so many matches because of that negative edge SBK >(

I was playing with the Neck breaker against Gief myself and I find it pretty useful if timed correctly. I haven’t been able to do it every time (Mostly because I forget and try to jump) but doing the neck breaker after a throw should escape an SPD if Gief Techs the throw. I’m not 100% convinced this will always work but I have done it a couple of times now, just be careful not to mash LL’s.

I wanna try that OS against Fei but how do you do it with out canceling into a Kikoken?

TOD combos lets get some videos :smiley:

P.S. Cesar got any tips vs Blanka?

736

If I understand Cauldrath correctly, that option select would not get a Kikoken if you do b Strong to throw, then quickly do f Kick to SBK. If it’s done fast enough to kara-cancel the Strong, then yeah, it’s a legit option select. If Fei does Flame Kick or CW, his startup for either move is too slow to hit Chun while she’s kara-cancelling the b Strong (6 frame start-up for Flame Kick which is faster than CW). And SBK start-up does have some invincible frames, so it wouldn’t get hit by the FK right away (I hope).

I’m wondering if it has any practical use though, and whether the SBK can actually trade or beat the FK/CW. If it can, then yeah, that would be a great OS! I’m really interested in hearing of any real world tests.

737

I guess I was worried about the negative edge Kikoken coming out similar to the SBK issue I’m having after a c mk into Kikoken. I know that the SBK will juggle the CW if done point blank at the same time but the FK might beat it. I’ll def give it a try.

738

For the throw/SBK OS, you’ll want to hold mp, so you don’t accidentally negative edge it. So, hold back, press and hold mp, press towards, then mk. (It is a little weird to get used to, especially on reaction.) I know lk SBK will get hit by a Flame Kick because of it’s bad invincibility, and mk hits earlier than hk, so it’s more likely to at least trade. I still haven’t figured out the exact timing for when SBK wins or loses to either, but I know that I’ll usually trade with Chicken Wing and I’ve beaten Flame Kick cleanly with three hits. I’m pretty sure SBK needs to be started just after he starts his Flame Kick, though.

I’ll also see about putting together a video for the TODs. I have trouble doing them twice in a row, so I might just do them once to show that it does, indeed, dizzy and do 50% damage.

I don’t have anyone offline to test with, so everything is going to be in either training mode or online.

EDIT: [media=youtube]bppuBt5QMCU[/media]

739

problem with the neckbreaker is it is an easy throw for the opponent when you land behind them.

740

Nice Vid Cauldrath, I’ve been doing those crossups for a while now and they are very effective especially the jump away overhead stop. VS Honda I do something very similar after I get a Knockdown to screw with his wakeup game. I’ll jump in with a crossup m. K so it whiffs then instant neck breaker, He’ll usually do a butt-slam or Ochio since he lost his charge for the headbutt and I’ll either hit him out of it or get frame advantage and get a free throw. Just watch out for his crossup Super it will get you if they can pull it off. Only person to do this to me so far was Ego everyone else cant handle it. As a bonus it really frustrates them since it looks like your just toying with them :wink:

On a side not I’ve been playing GGPO the last few days and some of the matchups a very different, mostly because I don’t have the stomp into air SBK to escape corner traps or other various shenanigans. But the Neck breaker is even more effective as well as the crossup Super. I still haven’t been able to try the OS trick vs Fei yet but I’m working on it.