Chun Li General Thread: Blue Jade

Street Fighter V Chun-Li
3621

I feel a lot of that probably comes from just being a big Chun player and all, but having played Chun most of Season 1 and getting into Juri now the last couple months, I just don’t see any particular reason to use Chun over her. Juri is more of a counter footsies character than someone that regularly engages in them which is similar to what Ibuki is with less pay off. The upside is when she’s stored up she commands the overall screen a lot better than Chun does. Which helps in matchups vs characters like Sim, Laura and Gief where you can use charged V Skill to stop them from using moves that they normally like to whiff from a range safely.

Most people don’t use Juri’s V Trigger optimally. It’s not really supposed to work like Chun’s where you’re simply fishing for combos. You use it more to move your way in through neutral, frame trap with buttons that don’t burn the V meter, then confirm into a damaging combo once you land an actual frame trap or button. The fireballs also helping in stopping people from pressing buttons or moving towards you unnecessarily.

3622

You my dude and all, but I don’t agree with basically any of this.

3623

Oh yeah and she also has much better anti air just on MP DP alone, I think still can technically AA jab after the patch (though supposedly slightly nerfed) and has a solid heavy button AA that can cancel into a store. Unless you have Karin/Urien level footsies and damage it really sucks to have so so AA.

3624

https://youtu.be/3WJsS2kT3c0

3625

Yeah her anti air game will get stronger after the 2.1 patch when her hp dp will be better for anti airs also.

Now they just released Ed who has every type of anti air in the game, better hit boxes on his normals than most of the cast and good walk speed so he can viably whiff punish. Time to pick him up too. One of the best fireballs too just cuz why not

3626

Starting delayed b+hp (as opposed to delayed st.mp or god forbid shimmies) when near the corner. In my experience, nobody ever blocks the CC b+hp crossunder correctly, so you should fish with b+hp pressure as often as possible. If the b+hp is blocked you can also then go into cr.mk xx fb, a stronger string than if you attempted a delayed st.mp.

I hit someone with it twice in the same game. Interestingly enough, both times b+hp caught lights rather than techs. Just another reason to use it over a shimmy.

https://youtu.be/IF8q7YobtNA

edit: 2nd vid, I have no idea whether this hit a light or a tech but either way it was good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZaUeVMH9ic

3627

A few things Ive noticed about b. Hp

  • You can hit confirm cc b. Hp, hk lks, which then you can vtrigger into St. Mp, St. Hk, ex. Lks o cr. Hp, hk lks for 320-280 dmg iirc. You can even confirm non cc b. Hp, hk lks into vtrigger, St. Mp, Cr. HP, lk. Lks, st. Lp, lk sbk

  • best setup for this IMHO is ex. Lks, dash, b. Hp

  • after b. Hp, hk lks you’re +2 on hit, after b. Hp on block you’re +2

  • after blocked b.hp and holding back, you can cr. Hp, fb and confirm on hit for vtrigger, dash B. Hp, cr. Mk, hk sbk or f. Hk, cr. Lp, st. Mp, Cr. Mk, mk sbk

3628

Some of you might have seen this already, but here’s a rather interesting set between Tokido and YamadaTaro. Don’t get your hopes up, it’s still around 66/33. Still, some interesting stuff there, though I wonder what Tokido was testing as he got hit by fwd.HK so often.

The video left me asking one question: how does YamadaTaro get the st.LK to work as an anti air with the tip of the foot? He’s pretty much the only S2 Chun I’ve seen doing that consistently. Does this have something to do with the jump hurt boxes being increased and that he catches opponent as early as possible so that they don’t have their move active before the kick hits?

I don’t know why, but for me it seems he does it earlier than I thought the kick could actually register a hit? If I recall, the st.LK hit box upper edge is a bit below Chun’s ankle when active?

3629

Not sure what you mean?

I use st. Lk in most situation and it rarely ever fails , b.RH pretty regularly too.

3630

What kind of buffs would you folks recommend for Ms. Lightning Legs?

(Note: This may sound like an extremely silly question but I would like to see from the perspective of individuals who play her).

3631

Moar throw range. Without plus on block IALL she needs a more threatening range to throw people from than what she has now. Vega has an unblockable command grab and an overhead that you don’t have to fall asleep to be hit by. Plus an OD forward dash to invade people and grab with. She can’t really force white chip as well as better characters like Karin, Rog or Laura so might as well just make it easier for her to grab people up. Even Juri has much better block strings with less pushback including a plus on block s.MP that lets her stay in her opponents face much longer. With a one time throw loop as well.

Improving her V Skill or buffing back up the time a bit on her V Trigger would be nice too. Still think there’s some room for tech and frame trap decisions to get her into a bit better of a spot, but those are general things they could fix.

3632

There’s a lot of things they could do to make her better:

Fhk gives combo on regular hit.
Fhk throw invincible on frame 2 instead of frame 6.
St.hp does more damage
Sweep has bigger knock back on block making it harder to punish
Moar throw range
Cr.hp -1 or -2 on block
Mk and hk legs -2 on block (they don’t knockdown or give combo outside v trigger so it makes no sense for them to be so negative)
Make cr.lk,st.mp a combo (LOL)
Cr.lk leaves her in range to throw without walking forward first (would never happen)

More throw range like DJ said, is the most obvious solution though.

3633

All of these make for reasonable suggestions. I want to believe that the balancing team would acknowledge these buffs but… I highly doubt if they would understand.

Here are a few more to add on.

  • Allow for SBK to have a slightly low charge time. Alternatively, the player can be given one or two more frames of advantage on hit from her 2MK.
  • 6HK and 3MK give throw and low invincibility on their earlier frames.
  • V-Skill has quicker startup with a slightly bigger hitbox.
  • V-Trigger should allow anywhere juggle if the player cancels from a normal against a opponent after anti-airing them.
    (Example: The opponent jumps. Chun-li smacks them with standing LK. The player cancels standing LK with V-Trigger. Chun-li then follows up with standing HK or something along those lines and then that normal ends up juggling the opponent). The point behind this is to increase her ability to anti-air and get more damage from them.

Something else: A very long time ago while this game was in development, there was a match between Ryu and Ms. Lightning Legs. Chun-li at the time did these odd series of punches that gave the appearance that it was a target combo. I wonder what that could have done for Chun-li…

3634

Ok so, I recommend all you guys try this out at home if you already haven’t… it was very eye opening for me.

I decided I wanted to see how easy it is to tech chuns throw when multiple things are done.

On various recordings I recorded chun versus chun and these were my settings:

1.dash cr.lp, walk forward throw (just fast enough for the throw to connect even on hit since this is the timing that will mostly be used in game)
2. Dash Cr.lp, walk forward a slight step, walk backwards cr.mk (shimmy)
3. Dash cr.lpx2 walk forward a bit, walk backwards cr.mk (shimmy from 2 jabs)
4. Dash cr.lp walk forward a bit st.mp
5. Dash cr.lp,st.mp (standard starter bnb)

I also tried various fhk strings, they all started with dash cr.lp then:

Immediate fhk
Walk forward a slight step fhk
Walk forward, then walk back fhk

These were all terrible. So don’t use these (we already knew that though)

I also tried the no shimmy shimmy, dash cr.lp, crouch block. This is wack, doesn’t really work unless the opponent is paying no attention… it had a 99% miss rate against me.

So I also tried dash cr.lp, stand, and dash cr.lp walk backwards… neither work. Ok so that’s good info. What it means:

People are DEFINITELY REACTING TO THE FORWARD MOVEMENT. It isn’t actually hard… I’m doing it without even knowing it so the shit is easy. This means simple walk backwards shimmies willl almost never work outside blind luck.

Ok so moving on, we now know that throw teching is reactive… they aren’t just reacting to the situation, they are specifically reacting to the forward movement from chun.

Anyways, to make a long story shorter, versus my “tech only” defense, the shimmy basically ALWAYS worked, EVERY TIME, but unfortunately, a lot of the time I would actually grab chuns cr.mk… so the shimmy needs to be really on point to not get grabbed. But even more astounding was how good the cr.lpx2 shimmy was…
This shit was basically impossible for me to not to wiff a tech against. VERY misleading. So that’s one that we should all incorporate.

Moving on, I decided to then test cr.lp as a defense. This defense beats the shimmies (we already know that though) but it gets hit by the delay st.mp.

But the thing is, where the throw tech is a reactive thing where the opponent is reacting to the forward walk, the cr.lp IS NOT.

This is huge, because now we have all the info we need to force people to guess on terms that are in our favor

So… the best overall throw mixup for chun is:

  1. Cr.lp> Walk forward, throw (beats people expecting shimmie)
  2. Cr.lp> Walk forward, shimmie (beats people reactively teching
  3. Cr.lp>slight delay st.mp (beats people autopiloting a slightly delayed cr.lp that will hit the shimmie and the throw

These need to be mixed and matched to have a truly ambiguous mixup game… ok so that’s awesome, but there’s more:

To throw the mixup off, cr.lpx2 shimmy and cr.lpx2 walk up throw are very good options to mix up the mixup so to speak, first of all it throws off reversal timing, which the opponent will start to do if the above options are owning them, second it requires a bit of a different mindset to beat both that and the above mixups. In order to beat the cr.lp variants as well as the cr.lpx2 variants, the opponent will basically need to be mashing jab so that they can hit inputs in all the gaps, but that loses hard to the cr.lp slight delay frame trap.

And final bonus:

While practicing these techs and jab defenses, I noticed that my jab CH almost everytime… so instead of just doing jab, I started to just do cr.lp,cr.mk CH confirm… and tbh it’s REALLY easy from this position. Just CH confirm into a slightly delayed L sbk and you are golden and are getting some actual damage from your defense.

So I recommend everyone run the drill if these skills aren’t something you yet possess.

Don’t just take my word for it, record it yourselves and see what works and what doesn’t and you will also come up with what you think will work for your own offense.

3635

I dunno, I don’t have a lot of faith in the dev team right now and think the suggestions that make the most sense to me (less input delay, less stubby normals, better anti-airs, 2P rematch etc) fall on deaf ears and they just decide who they want to be good and who should not be good… which is a shitty philosophy. All this while having the audacity to pump out the most DLC for the character(s) they were the most blatant about nerfing. LMAO.

-I’ve been flirting with the idea that cr. MK could be +2 on block because it’s the only normal that still leaves her in throw range, so that would be really good and it’s not stacked with as much great shit as Urien, so I don’t think it would be a problem.

-Or make f+MP/B+MP have the same frame advantage that its equivalent (st. MP) had in SF4 (+2 on block and +5 on hit), so that EX Legs can always be a threat if they don’t respect it and it can compliment her other normals better in the midrange. That or make it special cancellable (I know, crazy right?)

-I want her v-skill to function as a legit anti-air/have upper-body invincibility in addition to what it does now, because right now it’s one of the worst in the game and doesn’t get used much outside of setups, so a more common way to build v-gauge with it would be nice (assuming your opponent is jump-happy like a majority of people are in this game).

-I’ve been pushing constantly to fix the pushback on her light attacks to be more consistent for confirms (tweeted, sent feedback and made them the video showing that). At the very least I got a reply email acknowledging the issue, but I don’t think they would do anything about that this season if they change it at all.

I like the actual buffs she got, but they don’t make up for the degree of nerfs she got in terms of competing with the upper characters. Need a few more, so she doesn’t get disrespected as much.

3636

I don’t really want to sound like a whiner or a crybaby but the Capcom balance team for SFV sure has a funny way of handling these things.
Chun-li was fine the way she was in S1. But, that was a long while ago… She can still be viable but she is made even more difficult to play but for the wrong reasons.

3637

Nothing wrong with all of your suggestions but I would actually prefer Chun being offensively challenged but with strong enough neutral to make up for it. That said f+hk should definitely always combo on hit, that just makes sense.

My wishlist:

– link two lights into st.lp on standing opponents. (Currently only possible on crouching)
– aforementioned f+hk +3 at the very least (first active frame) on hit.
– revert nerfs to the following anti airs: b+hp, air throw, nj.hk. Maybe also some slight buff to b+hk
– maybe make cr.mp or cr.hp better as situational anti airs (i would salivate for cr.mp with like one frame of upper body invincibility). agree with v-skill anti air buffs, but being able to juggle from anti airs into v-skill sounds a little too strong except maybe in v-trigger.
– a special cancellable poke would be amazing, but I’d put it on st.mk instead of b+mp. Maybe improved hurtbox/hitbox and/or 10 more damage on st.mk as well.
– +10 damage on st.lk, make it usable in grounded combos again.* Maybe make it 4f startup, but the anti air hitbox only comes out on frame 2?

  • st.lk xx lk legs, cr.lp doesn’t connect anymore but it did in season 1
    – st.hp to -4 instead of -5
    – make b+hp CC reset possible during v-trigger (you can’t go for the reset in vt which is just stupid cause vt doesnt improve juggles from it)
    – probably revert the fireball frame data nerfs because they were 100% unnecessary, but I’m not sure how impactful the nerfs actually were

@Dime_x that sounds interesting, but out of curiosity does delayed st.mp require different timing to hit delayed buttons vs. techs? I use delayed st.mp/b+hp quite a lot, timed to ch techs, and I have noticed that it often hits buttons

3638

Yes, the timing is completely different. Now I want to go n the record and say that “timings” always change a certain amount, even based on just human error, but the “delayed” jab variants have 3 basic timing windows that will be used from good players:

1.mash timing… I.e. Immediately. This is the timing that smug tends to use when he does rogs st.lk target combo string. He doesn’t use it that predictably because if predicted it is easy to blow up with any standard frame trap that beats 3 framers.

Most opponents that are any good, won’t be using that timing very much though.
2. Delay the cr.lp about 2-4 frames after recovering from your opponent blocked jab. This is the timing that the delay st.mp hits (if you time your st.mp well) this jab timing will beat throws and jab check shimmies
3. Big delay jab, 5 or more frames of delay. This isn’t used much at all. The jab won’t come out fast enough to stop a throw… but it works against shimmy and the delayed frame trap.
4. Late tech, tech about 11-13 frames after blocking your opponents cr.lp (this late of a tech is only available against characters that have to walk forward after the jab tick, otherwise late tech is 11 frames or so, this changes depending one what state you are in. Throw tech window has 6 frames of tech time, but throw startup, will also automatically tech any throws that it comes in contact with. So… throw tech is actually around 11 frames. However one can lessens the tech window by doing meaty throws that hit as the opponent wakes up or lands from an attack etc etc. in these cases the throw tech window can be as small as 6 frames. But for the tick situation that we are talking about from chun, the tech window is HUGE.

So for frame trapping purposes, hitting the st.mp for delayed jab, you will need to delay your st.mp between 2 and 5 frames after the jab.

To hit a late tech from the same position, you need to time your button to hit around 10-14 frames after your jab. So basically:

Cr.lp then wait 3 frames and st.mp to hit delay jab
Or cr.lp then wait 7-9 frames and st.mp to hit the opponents throw startup.

But in the case of the second version, you have to show the walk forward to get the opponent to tech.

This is pretty high level stuff and the window is so variable that it’s best to just shimmy against tech, and delay frame trap against buttons.

Trying to delay a frame trap 7-9 frames leaves you open to all kinds of stupidity and rather than whittling down the opponents defensive options, it gives them more in the long run… so I personally would say to stay away from trying to frame trap delayed tech.

Also note that not everyone delay techs everytime, if you go for a delay frame trap and the opponent quick teched, the opponent will throw you.

It’s best to just mix and match the 3 variants that i mentioned in the above post imo.

3639

That’s interesting. I use delayed buttons a lot but I mostly go by feel without really trying to quantify my timing into frames. I would say I mainly use the loosest frame trap timing and it manages to catch a lot of shit.

That said, I think that trying to ch techs is both feasible and worth it. Personally, I have been trying to phase shimmies out of my game as much as possible against characters without reversals. Of course I still have to use shimmies / vt f+hk sometimes because some players have bizarre throw tech timings, which you mentioned. I also see why you think it’s a risk, cause you can get hit by stupid buttons. I think that’s definitely a risk worth taking though; if I’m in someone’s face and + then 90% of the time they’re either going to block/tech/reversal. In situations like after a st.lk anti air there is pretty much zero risk of getting jabbed out.

Advantages of trying to ch techs:

  • hits jump tech OS. Obviously less important after the patch and even currently nobody goes for jump tech 100% of the time but still a huge advantage.
  • as long as you use an appropriate button (not st.hk… which yamadataro/mizuha uses a lot for this) you keep up pressure even if blocked. Shimmies give up pressure if your opponent doesn’t take the bait
  • you get more damage. It can be difficult to confirm ch st.mp into cr.hp but it’s a huge step up in damage compared to anything you can get off a shimmy. If you’re near the corner, you can also go for b+hp CC resets.
  • sometimes it’s just not possible to go for a shimmy, e.g. you cross up your opponent and land in the corner or you go for a b+hp reset which gets blocked.
3640

I think I figured out why fhk is so bad as a tech beater:

I had previously heard that it was throw invincible on frame 6. But looking at the slo mo hitboxes, it isn’t throw invincible until the 10th or 11th frame… so that’s terrible.

But there was also the fact that when I was doing my tick throw drills, cr.lp,immediate fhk… wasn’t working. It wasn’t going through my tech at all, even though I was still teching, and since the tech window is 11-14 frames or so, and fhk is 18 frames and throw wiff is 18 frames… then technically speaking the fhk should clean me up for free if I’m teching… but it didn’t, at all.

Then it dawned on me like a majestic ray of light:

The startup of fhk doesnt look like the quick advance of a walk up throw. So, I was simply reacting to the fhk and pressing tech when it put me in blockstun, in other words I was using a super delayed tech on reaction to seeing the fhk. So… what about walking forward then doing FHK? Well, that WOULD work, if fhk had throw invulnerability earlier in its startup. But with 11 frames of throw vulnerability at the startup, it just gets thrown for free.

TLDR that’s why fhk is bad. It’s reactable, and it’s anti throw properties take forever to startup.