@TheFightingFish Here is a video of Chun-Li’s Max damage combos after jump-ins, DP punishes, Crush Counters, etc. (courtesy from @CharmingRogue
This vid has a difficulty rating on all the combos, to give you an idea of which ones are easy and which ones are more challenging. Sometimes, the simplest Chun-Li combo can be the most optimal. So pick and choose what’s right for you.
And to answer your second question, Chun-Li’s main AAs are her st LK and bk HK. My go-to is her st LK, especially for the noobs who jump in all the time. Even though it got nerfed, if you land a good st LK AA, you can dash under to get a mix up.
With Chun, Lightning Legs make easier combos but they also do less damage.
Quite handy are the ones that start c.LP, s.MP, c.MK, but instead of going to Spinning Bird Kick when cancelling from c.MK, you could opt to go for H.Legs. That’s 179 damage and 324 stun.EDIT: Actually scratch that, it’s 197/324, was wondering why Dime_X got more than me with less hits… Just goofed up looking at my notes. The SBK enders are better damage and stun wise, but quite a bit more timing involved.
Other somewhat easy with light confirm is c.LP, c.LP, c.LK xx M.Legs that does 128 damage and 275 stun.
c.LP, s.MP xx M.Legs, c.LK xx M.Legs is quite near the BnB with a medium SBK cancel, doing 213 damage and 377 stun. One more input and light link is required for that.
If you have meter, Ex. SBK occasionally does the trick of anti-airing when they get too cross-up happy. It can also throw the opponent to a corner. But using this is more situational.
This is true, but there’s no getting around chuns paltry damage, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t stagger though. I really like it because it gives me more pressure with chun than what I’m accustomed to, and that gives me more damage opportunities.
There’s always the chance of getting jabbed out of a stagger of course, but that’s where player skill comes in. Today I played against some opponents where staggering was kinda out of the question, but others were very susceptible to it. It’s just a read like anything else. Notice your opponent just blocking everything… start staggering. Notice your opponent getting hit all the time during your strings…
Don’t stagger since they are already opening themselves up.
I think it’s something that requires practice and experience. I learned a lot today from doing my staggers. I learned where my opponents are likely to break out, I learned different timings for different types of opponents.
I REALLY think that being able to consistently confirm st.mp is a huge skill for Chun. Today even with my shit confirm skills I was hitting st.mp (blocked) st.mp (blocked) st.mp (hit) confirm into cr.lk or cr.mk xx ex legs. It seems hard at first but in game it’s pretty easy for whatever reason. And because my confirm is literally just a st.mp, I don’t get pushed all that far out… so technically it’s always my turn since st.mp is plus on block.
Now, in the real world like you said some people just aren’t open to the stagger. They block the st.mp and just assume you will stagger so they just press buttons. I didn’t have a great answer for that at the time, but I’ve been in training mode and I’ve come up with some solutions like st.mp (blocked) and back away or frame trap with another st.mp (will wiff if they pressed nothing) or do a bmp or bhp or cr.lk
My next try tomorrow is going to be alternating between st.mp confirm and cr.lp (delay)st.mp confirm. They set up different situations and may keep people from mashing after the solo st.mp since if they are pressing after the solo st.mp, they are probably committed to pressing a button after blocking one move. Whether high level players can easily see the difference between the st.mp or jab I don’t know… but I’m experimenting.
My point is that we can’t do anything about chuns bad damage, but with some experience and insight we may be able to get a legit pressure/frame trap game going with her… I mean I was doing it decently today with literally no practice and it seems to work for players like phenom who does shit with necalli like walk up stagger st.mk x3… and if one hits he does cr.mp xx special. With necalli though I don’t think that his st.mk pushes as far back as Chuns st.mp, which makes it easier on him. But we are Chun and we have options. We can do cr.lp,st.mp, or st.mp alone, or cr.lp delay st.mp, after a cr.lp,st.mp blockstring we can do bmp, or we can stagger into a walkup st.mp… we have options. If we get hit more than our opponent gets hit then that’s kinda just on us (me) to get better and stagger/frame trap better via better guess and reads or better timing.
When I watch smug and idom play they are constantly varying strings and staggers and using different timings on stuff… and yeah they get hit sometimes. But they hit people a lot more. Maybe it only works well with them because those characters have so much explosive damage… idk… I’m just experimenting for now. And for now it has introduced a new dimension to my game.
I’m not saying you are wrong on any of your points though, I just kinda take it like how DJ says it’s not worth throwing fireballs with Chun… well depending on the player and matchup it might be really worth it, but against other players it might not.
It’s just another option to know about and use if your opponent is allowing it because if they are allowing it, it means they are to confident in their block.
Imo.
-edit
A couple of other things I found to be really powerful/helpful to the stagger strings today was that chuns cr.lk,st.lp is a super easy confirm into ex legs because it’s a much slower confirm than basically almost all other 2 hit jab confirms because of the fact that Chun has an extra 4 frames off the st.lp before it cancels. So what was a nerf in some ways is a buff in others.
With that confirm chun can do cr.lk,st.lp xx lk legs and then do cr.lk xx ex legs… only against a crouching opponent unfortunately for the link after lk legs which kinda defeats the purpose…
But it’s there.
An experiment I will try tomorrow will be doing st.mp,cr.mk xx hk legs. We don’t get the knockdown or corner carry, but the damage at 185 is solid and it confirms into super as well… so this may give us our burst damage/super for punishing things.
Aaaaaand I just found a 443 damage combo for Chun. Uses all her resources… but it’s confirmable! And since chuns v trigger is 2 bars this confirm will always be around if you use chuns hk legs ender or her sbk ender instead of ex legs.
Anywho:
St.mp,cr.mk xx hk legs, v trigger cancel, st.mp,cr.hp xx lk legs,cr.lp,cr.mk xx hk legs xx super (443)
Note that this only works on crouching opponents. If the opponent is standing though, it’s ok, you have forever to confirm stand or crouch and after the first lk legs you just do cr.lk xx legs xx super (430) so you only lose 14 points of damage. As a confirm this a master blaster for Chun because it’s hard for her to do anything above 400 on a regular non CC confirm.
Now THAT would explain why I like Chun Li’s buttom rhythm the best. I didn’t look for the frame data, but felt that Chun’s buttons tend to work best with my own rhythm, even with the differences between light, medium and heavy. Of the combo trials, Dhalsim’s and Nash’s light attacks (like Knee + L. Tragedy Assault) feel very tight, while the interval between their meaties seems actually too long - and don’t get me even started on Akuma and his heavy attacks. Karin’s button rhythm seemed a bit overclocked to my tastes, but I haven’t taken a look on her actual BnBs whether it was just Capcom’s decisions on the Trials or if she needs that fast inputs all the time.
Also, every time I see the V-skill, 3 hops, 2 jumping heavy punches AND then the follow up jump Ex. Air Legs, it just brings a tear of happiness to my eye. It’s… beautiful! It makes me think screw anti-air, it’s time to get modern, it’s time to go air-to-air and total air superiority! But I’m kind of put-off by the nagging thought of who lands first…
If chun hits the first cr.lk from point blank she can connect cr.lp, cr.lk for another easy confirm.
I’m sure I’m missing something but why exactly are you going into cr. lk after st.mp on hit? Is that just for ease of hit-confirming?
I agree that I find that much of her pressure game is based on st.mp. One thing I’ve been doing a lot is meaty b+hp in the corner -> walk-up, delayed st.mp timed to ch techs. In the future, I think f+hk may become a really important tool to set up walk-up pressure (i.e. f+hk -> walk up delayed st.mp). Totally agree that f+hk should be +3 on hit, but iirc you can actually link stuff after it if you hit it on its last active frames so you actually can convert off it if used as a poke. In general I tend to use f+hk as a forward moving poke rather than a throw bait but dash-up f+hk is unfortunately effective during v-trigger.
That said Chun’s st.mp pressure is still pretty sad even when you take so many steps to optimize it. Cr.mk and cr.lk are negative on hit and you can also kind of frame trap it into b+mp but that doesn’t convert into anything. Plus terrible throw range =(
What do you guys like to use for counterpokes/stuffing dashes? I fought a Bison using my Chun and Karin which really showed me how lacking my chun counterpoking game is. You can use pokes and fireballs, but they’re sometimes too slow and not particularly rewarding. As Karin, I can just stick out a st.mp (also not easy to whiff punish) and if a goon dashes into its 3 active frames then off a very easy confirm i get 200 meterless damage + corner carry + oki. I don’t really think Chun’s lights or st.mp are quite as good at this purpose. Cr.mk or b+hp maybe?
Is it character specific? I often have trouble with cr.lp after the light legs in this combo since a lot of the time it seems just out of range even though i have done the entire combo as close as i possibly can. This is just from matches though so maybe it’s not and i just wasn’t perfect.
You’re supposed to delay the cr. HP cancel into LK Legs (moves you closer than immediately cancelling in to LK Legs) so that while in v-trigger, you can link cr. LP, cr. MK etc afterwards. It works on both standing and crouching opponents.
Meaty overhead setups vs quickrise 3 framers (can link cr. LP xx LK SBK on counterhit or cr. LK xx EX Legs if you need more range):
-Combo into Air EX Legs, land, df+MK
-Raw CC B+HP, dash, df+MK
-EX legs or SBK knockdown, dash, activate V-trigger, 1 or 2f delay, df+MK
… if you think they will backrise instead, tap down before the overhead to get the meaty timing.
Fuck I’m so salty about akuma right now. I HATE noobshit fraudulent jump mixup characters. Little shit bastard can just run and throw a fireball or 2… then mixup jumpins with air fireball or divekick or regular jump… I just can’t see the skill in that, at all.
I would be fine with it if EX SBK was just a bit more reliable. If you jump at a chun who has bar and down charge you deserve to eat something. But a lot of the time because of the timing changes it will either whiff or tab their toe and send them away too far from the rest of the EX SBK so it only does about 10 damage. When you face something like that there really isn’t any reason to not just keep doing your jump mixups. At least with Guile you know you will eat a big chunk of damage from EX flash kick even if it does trade with your air fireball or kunai or whatever.
Thinking you have read on an air fireball from akuma and dashing under for a big punish then eating the J.mk instead is a heart breaker too lol.
I find it kinda insane how there are characters with air control so good that you need 3 aerial options to stand a chance of jumping on them and then there are characters where you can just jump in for free all the time, and they’re in the same game.
So I just came up against a throw tech defense that makes me hate the game. Normally my throw game consists of shimmy/throw/walk forward button/delay button without walking forward, slight walk forward cr.lk,st.lp
That’s a lot of variations to go through just to get some mixup damage off of a tick throw… but I came up against someone who uses a 3 way throw tech mixup that had me stumped at times:
1.mash a light about 2-3 frames delayed from normal fastest input timing… so fastest input frame trap doesn’t work, but it still beats cr.lp>walkup throw
2.walkbackwards making my throw wiff (and he would actually try to reverse shimmy here, and got me a couple of times… imagine that… getting your offensive throw shimmied… fucking shit ass game.
3.throw tech on any jumpin>throw attempt or dash in throw attempt or wakeup throw attempt.
This was extremely annoying to play against as I was consistently winning the neutral and getting into mixup position, but I couldn’t capililize on the position… some of my throws went through, but almost none of my frame traps worked. The most obvious thing to do was walk up cr.lk,st.lk but I got jabbed before I was in confirm range 90% of the time. Delay frame traps were getting jabbed and so were forward walking frame traps.
Throw was losing to both jab and walk backwards. Against the walk backwards I couldn’t get close enough to use cr.lk,st.lp unless I walked forward for a decent amount since he would be walking backwards and gaining distance on me… which is why jab was also working for him. I didn’t even try to shimmy since he basically never teched my tick throw. He would either walk backwards or hit jab and shimmy doesn’t work against either of these. I can’t for the life of me understand why throw defense midscreen beats so many mixup options. It’s like all he has to do is figure out that athrow is coming and he can do damn near whatever he wants… like 6 different throw defenses… but for me, the offensive person, I have to perfectly predict what option he will choose, so that I can beat it… it’s fucking dumb.
So that really only left me with one real option to beat all of this shit, I had to delay cr.mk and immediate cr.mk. And bam they worked… but since you can’t confirm them (or at least I can’t) I’m basically getting no damage for my position. Sometimes I’d even hit him with 2xcr.mk.
So basically even if I own someone at neutral and consistently get in on them, I can lose at this game.
Yeah, great game :rolleyes:
I seriously have no idea why capcom gave so many fucking defenses to throws in this game:
Yeah without v-trigger either on deck or active it will be hard to confirm cr. MK to catch players who do that as their defense (cancel into special xx VTC etc.). At least when it’s active, counter hit cr. LK links into cr. MK and counter hit cr. MK can link into itself. Sweeping is the unsafest option, but it might also be the answer to call out that behavior and at least affect their habit of walking back.
-Playing my friends Rashid last night, I realized how stupid/silly his cr. MK is.
Way back in the matchup thread, I mentioned how after your blocked F+MP, you can’t do another one vs that move because it will low profile it (but you can st. HP it which in turn loses to his cr. LK and other normals, so it becomes like this neutral guessing game). Also with it being 6f startup, it will trade with cr. MK and will only lose to something like EX legs in this scenario (silly that you have to spend meter just for a safe enough callout). You can try to wait and whiff punish, but that’s actually pretty hard to do because the hurtbox is so wonky and you’re trying to avoid being too early to stick out a button (getting counter hit) and too late to beat the recovery of it.
Well, the move is actually also low enough that it can low profile a F+MP frame trap after your st. MP is blocked (which is dumb). If you try to call it out with a cr. LP instead after a blocked st. MP… you’re too far to link into cr. MK xx special and can only link raw EX Legs (which is also dumb). Same deal with cr. LK to call it out. B+HP will work as a 4f trap, but will whiff after blocked st. MP if he doesn’t press anything. A second st. MP will whiff vs his cr. MK.
So cr. MK being the standard frame trap works as usual, but ends your turn on block and would be hard to confirm during a frame trap situation if the opponent is good at mixing up his defensive habits.
Of course this is in addition to dealing with his other good buttons, the god normal (cr. HP) and all the tools that makes him unpredictable to deal with.
Btw, his jumpins are particularly hard to deal with in season 2. Stuffs and trades with nearly every thing and your reward for actually successfully AAing is extremely low compared to the damage and massive corner-carry he gets (his damage output is actually decent now).
-I made a joke a while ago about Chun should get a +2 on block cr. MK (and I actually said that because I noticed it’s the only normal that still leaves you in throw range on block), but now I’m thinking it might actually be a buff worth considering given the meta of SFV.
-Balrog’s TAP might actually be the dumbest move in the game. We learned the extent of how dumb it can be last night (even causing meaty MP normals to whiff). Look out for it to be abused more in the future. You have to call it out with lower hitting normals, but that usually means abandoning reliable pressure for something that would lose to his other stuff. It’s really stupid… and not only vs Chun. Trust me.
Only counterhit stomp combos into air legs, both in and out of v-trigger. The version of air legs after stomp is slightly different than the normal air legs and you can still link cr. LP afterwards if you hit it low enough.
Did my first session of trying to branch out from Birdie and add a Chun-Li to my character stable. As I mentioned before (thanks for the good initial pointers by the way) I’m just a casual player with weak execution. So I had some pretty serious lumps with this first transition. Chun’s moveset exposed a few execution issues that I’m going to have to weed out as I move forward with her.
First off is a tendency I have to over-rotate with my QCF moves. I didn’t even realize it before (since characters that I played before didn’t have charge + rotate moves) but my QCFs often end up in the UF position as opposed to just F. Never was an issue before as the input was quick enough that I always got the special instead of a jump. But with Chun-Li I’m getting SBKs when I expected lightning legs because my rotation up from down to forward often went past to up-forward and triggered the SBK if I had charge.
Second, and this was way more of an issue in my matches, was “death by accidental command normal.” Man, Chun-Li has so many of those things. Getting her overhead when I was just trying to poke or combo with cr. MK was a really common issue for me. I also got my HKs mixed up a few times and (in match losing and rather embarrassing fashion) I accidentally headstomped on a stunned Laura instead of starting a jump-in attack. I’m going to have to get much cleaner with keeping my joystick in the correct position. Which actually seems like a good thing to me, as it should help my execution in general.
Execution issues aside, I’m having lots of fun with her so far. Coming from Birdie she feels fast as heck, which lets me get offensive way more easily. Also at the beginner level that I play at folks seems to have some trouble with AAing the odd jump angle on V-Skill.
EL OH MOTHERFUCKING EL!!! Dat ELeague Chun. At least Ricki is showing what we’ve been complaining about for the last 4 months.
“Yeah! Chun is still a good character!”
every SF player that doesn’t main Chun
Chun still has good buttons? Oh yeah? Do good buttons leave you at -5oB and almost universally punishable by every characters’ CA? Thank you Momochi Ken. Fantastic.