Well said guys
It’s not hate. She’s just not the best in the game.
Little known fact - Chun was actually really good in regular IV as well. The last arcade ranking I saw had her at 4th tied with Rufus (with only Sagat, Akuma, and Ryu above them). In console IV, she dropped down to 7th, but only because of points - she beat up the console characters pretty good, but Bison/Balrog beat them up even better, which bumped them up ahead of her.
The main reason we didn’t see Chun doing more in vanilla IV was that all her bad matchups just happened to be the tournament characters. Everyone who wasn’t Akuma or Dhalsim had a disadvantage against Sagat, but the funny thing about that matchup is that Chun actually walks all over him. It’s a bad match for her because Sagat can kill her in two opportunities. No joke, if you still have vanilla lying around somewhere, go try it - one good TU combo plus LOL Combo and Chun is dead or near dead. Akuma is a horrible match for her, he just shuts her down hard. Viper is bad because of her high damage output, plus she takes Chun out of her element. Rufus is bad because of both high damage, his own high vitality, and Chun’s difficulty with dealing with dive kicks. Sagat/Akuma/Viper/Rufus just happened to be very popular tournament characters, so going into a tournament using Chun meant fighting uphill all the way, with one character (Akuma) having the ability to just destroy her.
In Super, this dynamic actually didn’t change a whole lot. Thanks to damage adjustments, Chun can fight Sagat either evenly, or has the advantage (since she doesn’t die in two hits this time). Rufus and Viper are still bad, and Akuma still shuts her down hard. She gets her high rating mostly because of points - in vanilla/console she mostly went even or had advantage against everyone who wasn’t that big 4, and the same applies to the new cast in Super. People talk about Honda/Guile/Bison being the new top tier, and Chun fights those characters very well which helps boost her standing, but Honda/Guile/Bison is also being determined solely on points. How many tournaments have these characters been winning?
So far, it looks like most everyone in Super will have at least a few bad matchups. As long as Chun’s bad matchups are solid, tournament-worthy characters, she’s not going to be best in the game. Balrog is closer to that honor - he may not have as many good matches as Chun, but he is more consistent across the board.
personally I think chun’s just solid in this game, she dominates some characters (gief, honda) but everything else is very lose-able for her.
it’s kind of like Ryu, he has balanced matchups and his worst matchup is a pretty mild 6-4 vs. dhalsim or rose, and both of those can be made up for due to his versatility
…except there’s lots of extremely good Ryu players in the US and there isn’t really any great Chuns in the US right now. It isn’t that the character isn’t good because she doesn’t win majors, there simply isn’t any US Chun players on the level of Ricky/Justin right now
edit: Just watched the haneyama vs. uryo vid, that was free lol
I thought I had suppressed those memories…
(15-Frames) Fastest Forward Dash in the game that ranges 1.1, 2nd Fastest Back Dash in the game that ranges 1.3, 2nd fastest Walking Speed in the game, 1.0 Throw range, 6-Frames bilateral invincible move, 21-Frames Level 1 FA that ranges 1.789 with +1 on block/on hit, 7-Frames Sweep that ranges 1.785/lowers Vulnerable Hit Box/-5 on block, 2-Frames Super that ranges 2.644, 7-Frames U1 that ranges 3.860, and now Crouch Tech (Chainable 3-Frame start-up C. LK with 1.252 range) EX Legs > U2.
I don’t believe in Tier list, but Chun-li is definitely Top 5 characters in SSF4.
The only downside for Chun-li is that her learning curve is high to play competitively. It’s really hard to play Footsies on reaction and use different non-invincible Anti-air Normals in given situations at the same time. She also only has 900 life, but I think all the points I mentioned above makes up for that.
have u played her? sorry dude, but this is just numbers, and afaik numbers doesnt win matches… also that range data is from the hitbox videos? deff
Those facts and #'s are not “just numbers”; they’re her character design.
Isn’t the speculation assuming that everyone plays their characters at max potential?
man how i wish i had randoms (and in this case a great player) in my regular thread area and praise my character for being something half the cast isnt.
but whatever the human factor clearly out weights data in this game and this game only.
I agree. That’s why I thought it was under the assumption everyone plays their characters at max potential. I just had to voice my opinion on this because I’ve seen/played/and done a lot of research on her.
Ya how dare he come up w/ these fictional numbers and tell us that our character is good! I lose matches so she definetly cant be any good. /Chun li bot auto reply.
Numbers are meaningless. On paper we can make any character look scary. Remember the days before SSFIV came out, and everyone thought Dudley was going to be top tier because he did great damage and has a million ways to combo into ultra/super? Yeah…that didn’t quite work out by the numbers, did it. On paper, vanilla Chun beats Sagat, and of course we know that’s not true.
I won’t argue that Chun isn’t good in this game, because she is. But she’s not the best. I’m sure you’ve done research on her, but so have I. I’ve been playing her since arcade release. I’ve put in thousands of matches with her. I’ve taken her up against the giants. I may not be Nemo level, but I know the character, and I’d say with a fair bit of confidence, far better than you do.
But hey. If you can tell me how Chun can not get completely and utterly destroyed by Akuma, then I’ll concede and we’ll call Chun THE top-tier OP.
Everyone has bad match-ups. We’re looking at the overall picture, aren’t we?
I don’t like to play Theory Fighter because anythings possible. So I give out facts instead. Chun-li’s Top 5 in my opinion. You can take it with a grain of salt.
P.S. Ryus the best in the game.
Yeah, wow, numbers sure tell you everything about the whole picture, don’t they? Or…not. Anyone can throw out stats and make any character look like the best in the game. Here, let me try…
OMG Dudley! He can do 330 damage off jab hit-confirm combos, his super can be hit-confirmed off jab, target combos, or even his overhead. His overhead can be comboed into for good damage. He has good AA in EX Jet Upper. Great range on his Focus. A normal move for getting past fireballs. U1 punishes fireballs and fierce/roundhouse pokes from mid-screen. U2 can be juggled into from mid-screen requiring only 1 EX bar, or none at all! Dudley for top 5!
…We obviously know Dudley isn’t top 5, while all the above is true, the “facts” don’t take into account that it’s really difficult for him to get in, and even with EX Jet Upper his reversal options kinda suck.
What these facts don’t take into account - EX SBK has little vertical range, can be beaten easily with angled attacks, cannot be FADC’d, and has a ton of recovery on block/whiff. Safe jump with backdash OS pretty much takes away all her options for reversal/escape, and since Chun loses charge after blocking the jump-in, she can’t even try to EX SBK her way out of the blockstring.
Her FA attack itself comes out slow, and will get beaten out by two-hit pokes and pokes buffered into specials. If you start a FA on a shoto jump-in, they’ll thank you with a free uppercut to the chin, which leads to safe-jump opportunities.
Sweep is BAD FA bait. Chun’s opponents don’t even have to hit her with the FA, they can just dash through it and nail her with their combo of choice.
Crouch tech? Your opponent will grin madly as he blows it up with a frame trap into big combo.
I’m not saying Chun isn’t one of the best in the game, she’s definitely a very good character. But this…
No. Even for an experienced player, Chun has to stay in control of the match. If she gets knockdowned, she can have all her defensive options taken away from her, and be forced to play a guessing game where guessing right means not taking damage, and guessing wrong means taking damage and playing the game all over again. A big part of playing Chun is to not let her get into those situations, and then if and when she does get in them, getting out of them without getting your lifebar destroyed. This can be very hard to do against good players. It’s what makes Chun more than “OMG look at her toolset and options she’s so OP!”
@ topic
yes chun is the best in the game. that is all.
Again, thank you for that compelling and well-constructed argument.
Azrael, your effort is appreciated, but it doesn’t seem to be getting through to these guys. You know they aren’t worth arguing to if you keep saying the same thing over and over again.
I absolutely hate it when people say Chun Li is the best in this game.
She’s good, but not the best. Guile, Rog, Bison, Honda, Ryu, Sim, Akuma, Rufus, and Chun are up there though.
- I can’t really see why people can call Chun the best in this game if anyone using here hasn’t won a major. I mean, w/o CP’ing as Ricky Ortiz sort of did. Before Lud made Top 8 at NEC, I believe Shizza was the last one to make Top 8 at a major.
I think by looking at tournament placings/rankings we can see that Chun is not easy mode. Simply by browsing and lurking these forums we put into a lot of work to get Chun to where she is now, which isn’t even z0mg uber good mode. I’m not saying no other character forum has done that, but I just don’t understand why people say Chun is the best. Footsies isn’t an easy game to play, no reversals without meter, no universal AA, only a decent BnB (cr.jab to s.fierce) that doesn’t work on some characters who are crouching, against a good player who can use their FA well our pokes can get raped, low vitality, etc.
Yes, her bnb damage is decent (or good if you wanna call it that), exsbk is decent (if you can call this move persay ‘good’ then you’re trippin’), and her super is (not gonna lie) pretty gdlk. But what can she do if she doesn’t have meter?
Honestly in a sense, Chun is like Ryu. Just nerf Ryu’s rushdown game, AA, damage, health, and add a backdash, pokes, little more stun, a really good super, and good walk speed and you have Chun.
u forgot the tits /offtopic
the other day i lost to a dudley placing top5, thats make dud op to me ;_;
I’ve been telling a lot of people a lot of the things mentioned here in the hope of debunking Chun as being top tier. I think a lot of the people who claim that she is top tier easily recognise her strengths because their own character lacks these qualities, but fail to see that their strengths elsewhere compensates for these deficiencies.
Chun had a very good backdash, but that merely made up for her lack of other options on wakeup bar ex-sbk which required a bar of super meter. The backdash is very good and was overpowered when no one knew how to counter it, but these days, it’s very difficult to get away with using this as a viable gtfo me option as the recovery is punishable on reaction. So what is left now is a 50/50 option of crouch teching and blocking against frame traps as was mentioned by Azrael above.
I don’t understand.
When Sagat was top tier in Vanilla, EVERYONE KNEW he was top tier. Even Sagat players. I think most of them would readily concede that Sagat was top tier, because he really was best in the game.
But in Super, even Chun players disagree about her being top tier, which should speak volumes in and of itself. People who know the character inside and out, don’t believe she is top tier. Compare that to Vanilla, when Sagat players knew and admitted he was top tier. Doesn’t our opinion as Chun mainers carry any merit?
Chun is good. She is not the best in the game. Top 5 maybe, but her bad matchups are so bad that it’s hard to make her tournament viable, especially when she has bad matchups against a lot of very good characters that a lot of players use.