You might want to check out some of the things VDO does with Rogue v. assists. Pretty good life from some relaunch loops.
for the record, I talked to Ishiyama yesterday and showed him that Bison guardbreak you guys posted here: “He has a full screen guardbreak which is kind of strict on timing but is very useful. I never tested it to see if they took the hit what would happen, but reguardless he would be safe. fp fireball cancelled to the hcb+pp ball super.”
He said that he knew it, but that a single Pushblock would mess the timing up and you’d just waste a bar and leave Bison open…
I haven’t tested yet, but if he say so, I believe him.
About chun-li, I played Shin online yesterday… well, it isn’t of course the same thing as playing offline, but I saw some interesting moves.
first of all, he uses Stomp a lot, It’s insanely fast, and will outpriorize almost anything that comes from below chun-li, also, there’s a “bug” which allows him to call assists while super jumping while stomping, so he used chun’s triple jumps and stomp stomp stomp + tron at super jump height to fill bars (and it charges those bars like hell) and runaway pattern.
He can’t do those infinites and stuff he put on his combo video online, because the timing is just too strict, but his Chun Tron duo and some resets using c.lk or instant overhead stomp are really, really menacing, I lost magnus in seconds to this a couple of times.
unfortunately I couldn’t tape anything yesterday, but if I can play him again, even if it’s online and our combos aren’t the same they would be offline, those matches could show all you guys his Chun-li.
there are ways to counter pushblocking but it would require dhc’ing. still good to know since many people that fight bison have no clue about him. most people just block. and if you character that you played behind bison couldn’t punish fullscreen with a dhc, and you knew they were pushblocking, you could also do fp fireball into the scissor kick super to close the gap between your opponent so more dhc’s would hit cleaner.
yeah, surely, it all goes to mind games…
specially, if you have a lot of bars, Bison can connect Ball super into ball super, or even tome other combo… you could even just wait a bit before doing that ball super if you see that pushblock coming, well, gotta do some testing :smokin:
50moreCents said “Hulk can’t punish assists like tron”…
Yay… someone I can help…hehe
Hulk has an assist punish semi-infinite that can only be stopped by someone with a beam… even then… its risky for them to try because they could get their point caught up as well…
It’s a flat assist kill when done properly with 3 bars (some weaker toons and favorable rock spawning can make it a kill with only 2 sometimes)
(on an assist) g.charge xx g.quake, (hold back and wait for screen to go back to normal, press fwd to begin g. charge again… repeat…
works like a fkin charm once you get it down… and theres almost nothing they can do bout it unless they got a beam that will shoot through the quake rocks
This will every once in awhile even work on a point… the rocks spawn randomly… and sometimes they hit just right to let it chain… tho not all that often.
you have an example of a character that can’t really do anything? I’m trying to think, and so far everyone can stop that 1 way or another.
If i was saying hulk can’t punish assists like tron, I was talking about assist wise (hulk-dash vs tron-projectile). I think hulk is a good low tier substitute for tron if you are going for pure low tier. I actually think bison and hulk work wonders together. Bison’s puff balls really help out hulk’s assist in the way of punishing, s.rh+hulk, lp puff ball is a fairly safe assist punish that gets counter hits with people trying to stop hulk from ucking the assist up.
About that assist kill loop you are referring to, it can be pushblocked at a bare minimum. With marvel having invincible assists, teleports, invincible moves, and frame kills, that creates problems for that loop. The loop works best if the opponent is cornered, but if the opponent has an invincible assist, it will at least trade with your gamma charge. Mister Ed, an exceptional florida jugg/hulk/collosus player, made me aware of a lot of hulk’s capabilities, and the lack thereof. im not sure if i ever saw somebody pick anything except cable/doom variations on him in tournament. he was scary.
beats… I think you underestimate exactly how good those rocks are at blocking shit… even stuff that goes through it does so slowly as it is forced to go hit for hit with each rock… even stuff that does totally go through… like hailstorm… has about 90% of the move blocked by rocks before it goes though… if you are planning on tapping hulk outta it… nope… rocks keep coming anyways… theres no jumping, sjumping, or airdashing over it… the damn things come from the sky outside the screen AND appear in the sky within the screen at the same time… some toons in theory have something that they could try… but it would be a crap shoot… and they’d be better off blocking… most toons cannot do shit… like think about capcom… wouldnt captin sword work… nope… comes out to slow… will dash away rocks… hulk will block… same thing for magnetic shockwave unless done at point blank (somewhere physically impossible to be with the rocks (whether you block or not) and many other moves… if you count something like these two moves… which will stop it after 1 80 dmg rep… a real STOP… then ok you are right… but if the best thing they can do is let you do 60%+ dmg to their assist and then spend a bar to force you to block instead of repping it agin… i call that pretty effective.
Why not tell me what some of the toons with no multihit beam (or very few other special moves) are gonna do beats? sent is f’d worse than anyone… none of his moves make it through the rocks… and if he goes into fly… you just cancel to crush instead of quake. Against sent… I actually use g.charge xx quake to advance on him… one of the few ways hulk can. Before you tell me what wont work… why not try it… b/c i have been for almost a decade and you can’t tell me that what I always do doesnt work homie… no matter how much I respect your skills.
50… push blocking wont help… hulk himself makes no contact… and pushblocking the rocks wont push hulk back… … even if you could push hulk back during the move are you suggesting someone will try to dash in during rocks so they can pb? or try to beat out the gamma charge and pb? either scenario sounds like a bad idea to try to me… …this is also an assist punish loop… not a block dmg loop… so they certainly cannot call a capcom, psy, ken… or any other assist…
in terms of what you mean like… assist punishing assist… yea hulks gamma charge is ok at getting there and hitting… but doesnt rock the stupid like tron…
bison hulk is really fun… one of the few toons to provide hulk easymode double crushes… bison’s mobility is also a major boon to catch some of those runaway bastards that don’t like to let hulk get close… i feel like bison is one of the least explored characters in the game… he’s got a huge slew of moves and a very big bag of tricks… think the learning curve with him is just a bit to annoying for some.
I’ve been maining hulk for about 7 years now… and tho there ARE ways around it that I didnt mention (and won’t) MOST toons will watch their assist killed before they figure out a way around it without getting their point mashed.
No matter what is said… orginial point was… give it a shot 50… you’ll know when its safe and know based on who you are fighting at the time… if they have no move you know will go through… its safe til that toon shows you otherwise (which i’ve rarely seen.)
so you can’t tell me anyone then? I’m not saying they will stop 1 super (which it sounds like you just admitted), but multiple supers definitely.
yeah, 1 super is pretty safe afaik, but when attempting multiple I can’t picture anyone that can’t stop you
I’ll try it out next time I play marvel with some comp., but no matter how complete the guardstun is on marvel (strider/doom, spiral/sent, tron/sent, c.fp to hsf), you can always jump straight out if you know the correct time to pushblock. albeit, i do believe that if they are in the corner, this assist kill loop would be hard for lots of people to get out of, but, if they pushblock correctly and have a super with decent to quick startup (like tempest or a whole slew of other supers), they can dhc during the second loop, still good stuff but not overpowered to where u can’t do anything.
Whether or not it’s a 100% fool-proof assist kill, the point is its still gonna hurt, especially if you have a Bar lead and/or the ability to cancel to something instant.
…
but heres the thing…if 1 rep is safe… then how is 2 not safe… the only thing they can do sj during the 1/2 a second where you are g.charging (i get people in the knees all the time when they try that.)
storm… works pretty good… lighting or hail will stop you after 1 rep (tho most of either move is blocked by rocks)… and you just traded more dmg than you recieved…
how bout a list of what people CAN do… its far easier for me… because I do it in ALL circumstances cept these… and thats how I remember it…
mags… shockwave… thats… it… and all it does is stop you after a rep… rocks everything else he has
capcom … captin sword… forces block after a rep…
IM… proton cannon… eats your face… dont try this on IM…lol
Cable… see IM
cyke… mega optic what? see IM…
morrigan… see IM
felicia… ground wave hyper… stops you… eats you…
gambit… either hyper can get through tho to what extent is somewhat random…
ryu… see IM
guile… sonic hur… if he is close enough when you cancel… (rare) otherwise… he can do nothing…
I know I’m leaving a few out…
Now many people have some things they can try… but they will have to take a decent risk just to force you to block and not keep it going… and wtver it is… it can’t rely on taking to the air… and must be fast enough to beat out gamme charge (elminates almost everything.)
The key to making this work right is all positional… you must cancel each charge BEFORE you are to close to their point… and yet still get close enough that their point must block some of the farthest out roks… this helps elminate 90% of what anyone could try… but the cancel timing takes a lot of work and has very little margin for error if you want the quake to connect on the assist…
Holy Shit I HAD no idea Sonson can TRIJUMP(well more like a ghetto version)!
Super Jump, Down ASAP + PP then use Hp or HK. You can even do cross ups.
Pretty sure I’m not the only that discovered this, but characters with single air dashes, like Chun, Sonson, Rogue, Tron have some really good potential for mix up games(well we know Rouge can already rush good enough). Unfortunately, Omega and Blackheart single air dashes won’t go as low. Still can help out their cross up games.
Sorry If it’s old news guys.
some other tricky stuff with dat monkey.
poke, tron+monkey crawl can be tricky (like ken’s roll) lol. it’s hard to see where she is too and can randomly go on either side and end up, again, on either side
wall run while character is coming in makes them come in on the opposite side if you pass the center of screen (even if dead character stays on same side). do a monkey kick to hit them, sorta funny
cr.lk, cr.mk (picks them up a bit), s.hkxxSRK crosses up (cancel st.hk quickly, which moves you forward a bit [under in this case since they were off the ground]). seemingly you can block same direction (haven’t tested much) but you can press tron+hkxxSRK for a sanwich
Beats you give away too much good shit!
For example, I would never say that Wolverine has a 2 button Speed-up infinite on Sentinel that can carry him across the whole screen free, or that the HP infinite works mid-screen, or that you can rejump infinite most characters with spd-up j.LP, LK, LK, HK.
I would never be that nice!
…
beats:
“wall run while character is coming in makes them come in on the opposite side if you pass the center of screen (even if dead character stays on same side). do a monkey kick to hit them, sorta funny”
IIRC you can setup some unblockables/gb’s by this method + the right assist… its been a couple years since i’ve played my buddy who uses sonson tho… i remember him connecting and comboing the kick to AA and XX hyper…
I use wolvie drill claw into the wall and back out to switch sides with em similarly… can be tough to predict if you will drillclaw back out to the other side of em again… or just drop in and combo… nothing new tho…
yes, depending on how the kick hits you can combo to SRKxxSUPER or a launcher. but it doesn’t seem the it will connect correctly when they’re not blocking. it seems by the time it can connect correctly, they should already be blocking.
I’m pretty sure it doesn’t setup and unblockables/GBs though. you could possibly put out an assist that takes forever right as they die, wall run, and possibly trick them into getting hit.
Damn, anyone play Omega Red? Trying to pick him up, but it’s not really that much info out there.
I know he has a ghetto Trijump and all, but i just need more. Sigh
Edit: What do you guys think of Psylocke?
omega red is beastly…ugh
I love psy. my original fave character. I sometimes start her…she can play a nice keepaway game and rushdown with nice assists. she gets snapped in quite a bit, so you learn different tools to use against the gods :] sent teams will be tuff of course though.
…
I love psy… air combo, u+hk xx psyblade xx butterflies, DHC to gamma crush, and after last hit, DHC to proton cannon… was a beastly DHC back in the day… death to anyone from full…
Shame they didn’t give her an air dash… that would be truly scary…
playing around a tad with that monkey kick to hyper combo… yer correct beats… pretty hard to easily connect it right… but off an assist hit (i was using drones)… it was pretty decent. drones gave decent options to try the combo on connect or get out safe on block… pretty safe assist punish as well… depending…
lots of fun…
something like call bison orb, wall run so your incoming would switch sides and monkey kick off… drop and wait for the last frames of orb… SRK xx super… (should) gb in theory… but im not even gonna try… bit much for me…