But if someone could find a glitch around the redring, that would make Honda even more broken than he already is! :sad: << (not being serious).
Would it make you feel better if I said: Pick honda and your xbox teleports into another dimension, where mole people have honda vs. honda matches that last until the world ends.
Yes, yes it would.
Honda’s jab headbutt is a weakness now because it goes shorter so it’s easier to bait it (especially if you’re using an fb character) and punish on recovery which makes the honda player go to fierce or strong headbutt which don’t go through fb’s. The handslaps coming out easier ans faster now mitigate the hitbox in front of them in fact it kind of feels like hand slaps is more powerful then they were in st lol.
Anyways the point is he isn’t early as good as all you people think, inching your way forward while blocking when necessary can work wonders against him IMO he’s still midtier.
I like the stored, no whiff oicho. Instead of him being the weakest grappler at grappleing, it makes him the defensive one. The longer ranges of the other two make them more offensive grapplers.
This way he’s not 1/2 a grappler, but the least effective offensively when it comes to throws, but the most effective defensively. That and the other two can still throw him from outside of range.
Being able to block and oicho a crossup for example isn’t all that gross to me since most characters shouldn’t be getting that close to Honda anyway.
i like this argument:angel:
Two things to me are more or less sacred to Honda. Invulnerable headbutt and should he have an oicho at all, that it be storeable.
Id’s love to get O. Honda normals, or other imporvements, but I don’t think it would be worth any more nerfs. The slaps were pretty heavily de-powered for those who could already start them quickly. Big dizzy on the oicho was nice too.
I now see why they changed the butt-bomb the way they did from HF. It works better to clear projectiles, but is less effective offensively and against jump-ins. Just the kind of change Honda needs in general. Unfortunatly I see giving him O Honda normals has the same problem, it would make him better against the characters he already beats.
I mean, more nerfs could balance that out, but I wouldn’t want to see Honda become less effective than Fei when it comes to defense.
I mean, if you took away the invulnerability on wakeup, he’d have to rely on the butt-bomb as a reversal. That would make him like dictator, unable to punish, but able toescape on wakeup. Very “un-Hondaish” in my opinion.
i hate invincible jab headbutt, it’s such a boring way to get around the problem. i remember someone suggested it in the old suggestions thread and someone joked that he should get a fireball hat when he did it to explain how it nullifies fireballs. dont think anyone took the suggestion seriously…It’s also counter to how he’s going to be played in all future and past SF games, i can’t see iv, v etc adopting this idea. i don’t use honda,so i could be wrong, but i’ve not seen anyone use jab headbutts that effectively vs someone who knows what they are doing with fireballs.
In all honesty (Especially being a Gief main) I just hate how insanely safe his headbutt is. Dictator’s drill can be reversal/thrown, Blanka bounces in a way that allows you to move in on him, etc etc. I just wish it was closer to Blanka’s horizontal ball and have him bounce back higher, and a longer recovery, HOWEVER this is mostly just blissful thinking as I don’t play Honda so I have no clue how it would affect HIS matchups.
Anyways, I just wanted to point out that since HDR came out and I saw my bro mess around with HDR Honda (He mained him in ST) AND having fought him with a few different characters, I said to myself that he was definitely going to be the character that the majority begins to have issues with. Weeks passed, then a month, and Akuma shenanigans were thrown back and fourth for a bit…and lo and behold, who’s the flavor of the month in this topic though? 
Lol.
Ahhhh Th3 Greench - I think you’ve given me a right old pasting as Blanka vs Vega (Claw). Like you need any more help …
I don’t think Honda needs sweeping changes. As long as the headbutt can be more easily punished, he’d be fine. Maybe it bounces back less on block?
I prefer my method of destroying the xboxes of everyone who plays Honda 
But more seriously, I think they should take away his turtling powers. The reversal qualities of jab headbutt, combined with the huge invincibility frames of mk buttbomb, plus stored oichyo, make him way too good at turtling. I honestly see nothing wrong with him having to just block crossups like other characters that can kill you in 5 seconds (e.g. Dictator, Chun).
Remove oichyos, remove crossup avoidance properties of strong buttbomb, and nerf HHS block damage, and I think he’d be fine. None of those things really affect his fireball character matchups much but I think rewarding characters like Cammy for a knockdown (with crossup opportunities) is where it’s at.
That said, he’s not gonna make me stop playing the game, so I don’t really have that much invested in this issue.
Akuma, however, is.
I have way more trouble with Honda than Akuma, but I play Claw >_<
Quoted for painful, painful truth.
I kinda think Honda still loses to claw. Nothing he got does him any damn good against claw. and it was a close matchup before.
We’d love to have your advice over in the Claw thread, then 
All Honda’s specials and his super work great against Claw, IMO.
My take on meaningful Remix changes in Claw vs Honda:
- Claw doesn’t knock down on dives, Claw loses walkback Flip Kicks.
- Honda has easier HHS and a better super.
Claw nerfed, Honda buffed. If it was a close matchup before, I don’t think it is now. Or at least in the middle skill tiers.
Yeah, I agree with this. The fake dive doesn’t really help Claw out in this matchup 'cause it’s not like Honda was going to buttslam/headbutt until Claw got close to him in the first place. The dives not knocking down means Claw can no longer depend on a knockdown to lead to solid damage/running games anymore, and those were important to him. Don’t think it’s too lopsided though, 6-4 maybe. Still the stupidest non-mirror match around.
From a Honda player’s perspective, I disagree that I can headbutt if I see Cammy/Fei/etc twitch; their rapid standing jabs/shorts and things like Fei standing fierce and dragon punches make headbutt not such a great option most of the time. If you guys think jab headbutt can stay invincible and be balanced, though, hey, that’s totally cool with me. I don’t think it’d be a big deal if it were vulnerable at the back; it’d still be a good antiair in most situations, standing fierce chop could deal with some other situations, and buttslam could escape other situations (there are already situations where I use buttslam to escape air attacks, after all). I think that would be a totally fine set of options that would make Honda a more reasonable matchup for some characters, make him think a little more about how to defend himself, and yet not hurt him much in his bad/even matchups. Also I’d be totally down with the headbutt having less bounceback, both because that would make it more reasonable for characters Honda wants to keep out and because that would let Honda stay closer to characters he wants to get in on.
I don’t think anything having to do with ochio is essential for Honda. Honda doesn’t need stored ochio to be the more effective at defense than the other grapplers, he’s just naturally better at defense than they are anyway, even in previous games when he didn’t even have ochio. Nobody’s going to accuse O Honda or HF Honda of having weak grab games, whether in offense or in defense. Ochio is a pretty superfluous move in my opinion, and anything having to do with it, from storing to whiffing to taking it out entirely, wouldn’t be a big deal to me.
And there’s no need to talk about what would happen if Honda got O Honda’s normals. O Honda already has O Honda’s normals, and we can see what they do: they help him in the matchups where he wants to get in, matchups where has to play footsies, and they’re not very important in the matchups he wins. Well, except for cancelable standing/crouching jab, but I’m not calling for those to come back.
I also haven’t even noticed the more vulnerable slaps hitbox, it hasn’t even come up for me. As far as I’m concerned, so far, with the easier command, the slaps were only buffed.
Also lol at Honda’s new jab headbutt being a weakness because it was made better without being made too good. Really?
Yeah, again, that’s me oversimplifying things. You obviously can’t Jab Headbutt if you see Cammy twitch, but the thing is this: for the most part, Cammy can only damage Honda with a safely distanced Cannon Drill if Honda turtles. Cammy CANNOT do that up close, so she’s gotta do it from far away. So that gives you plenty of time to Jab Headbutt the Cannon Drill everytime she does it. Otherwise, you just Block and you’re safe from everything else.
Also, Fierce Headbutts up-close are also REALLY good (in fact, I sometimes prefer them) because they are invincible up to the frame they hit, so at worst you can trade, and if they don’t do anything, it’s impossible to react to it in time.
Obviously nothing is fool proof, but the risk factor involved with Honda’s playing style is so far lower than anyone who has to fight him. That’s the problem. If you succeed in getting what you wanted, most of the time you do Block Damage to Honda. Occasionally, you’ll hit the Headbutt up close if you are lucky. But the majority of the time, you’ll eat a few Headbutts, get nailed by surprise Hand Slaps, whiff DP moves to get free Oicho’ed, or take Block Damage from a Jab Headbutt you can’t punish if blocked.
The risk/reward factor is just non-existent for Honda. Everything can be countered, yes, it’s true. But the frustration from trying to defeat a turtle Honda is massive. Because you know all he’s doing is holding down/back and you’re working your ass off trying to break this wall while everything just falls into place for him by being able to Block, throw in an instant, use a completely safe invincible move, and attack you with a surprise Hand Slap without ever moving the joystick.
I guess that’s what this all boils down to, with the people who hate Honda. It’s not that it’s 100% impenetrable, it’s just a principles thing. And I’m not only just complaining that Honda is too good against non-Fireball characters, I’m also complaining he’s still not quite good enough against Fireball characters. The amount of effort involved in every Honda match is so wildly inconsistent. You either have to work 10x harder than Honda to win, or Honda has to work 10x harder than you to win. He simply just shouldn’t be like this. He’s just not a well-designed character at this point, and I really think he needs some looking at from a design aspect, even if it does mean sweeping changes.
- James
I was WONDERING why I would always go through his headbutt when trying to counter it with Balrog’s headbutt all the time. This is messed.
Thank god at LEAST jchen aknowledges you can react to fireballs from hella far away and punish with super. I’m not saying everyone else doesn’t, but i’ve seen reputable players say “but honda super doesn’t do anythink other than antiair!”. It’s like you guys don’t want to experiment and just want to play old ST.
I’m not complaining about honda, most of the chars i play do well against him but i do think the tweaked super and the fact good players can have full meter in seconds by whiffing HHS rhytmically and lk buttslams makes him a much beter character than he was, top tier or at least damn close.