I say bring back Metal Gief from MvsC1! He is one of the most fun characters I have ever used. So what if he beats everyone? Gief has gotten the short end of the stick for too long!! :wgrin:
Ok, back to reality. Several of us have mentioned our issues with Honda, but how do you fix him? The jab headbutt and HHS are my biggest gripes, but those are his regular moves so what to do?
Same with Gief. Short of giving him new moves, how do you help him out? I really miss playing with him and one (of many) reasons I am excited about SF IV is that he is actually use-able in that game.
So one of the things I first realized when I played ST after playing CE/Turbo for a long time was that the hhs actually moved honda forward. I always thought hhs always had application when it didn’t automatically shove him forward. Of course, this may not be true anymore because of the ochio. I’m not sure if changing his hhs back would actually have the intended effect of making him less of a turtle…Guile, Vega, Deejay to name a few can still realistically advance while holding their charge, and Vega is very much an offensive character.
Shoto vs Honda is probably the most act/react type fight in the game. It’s not about locking him in the corner. It’s about throwing fireballs (acting), and then reacting to whatever he does to get around it (jump, buttslam, headbutt).
A bunch of bounce back on the hhs maybe? I don’t know.
I’ve really noticed how good Honda is when I’m using Fei. Fei has like nothing going for him in this match. It seems like the only thing that works against him is standing short kicks vs the headbutt/ stomp. I’m getting slaughtered every time I face Honda right now. Is there something I’m missing? I cannot get in on him at all.
It feels like Honda got more improvements than nerfs, while the non-fireball cast still gets raped in the match up. The best thing would have been to have Honda removed him from the game.
Nowadays I am a Gief player, so my hatred is slightly skewed. Good to see others hating him though.
what can I say, I’m trying to make my real life career in theory anyway
I don’t want hands nerfed any more, it’s too important in the matchups Honda loses. All I think needs to be done is get rid of storing on ochio, give ochio a whiff animation, and slightly nerf the headbutt in some way (ie more vulnerable hitbox or less bounceback or something) and give the characters he beats better options. I don’t think giving those characters better options is gonna negatively affect too many matchups seeing as those characters are basically all still low tier in Remix. My dream changes for Gief (building on his R Gief version) include changes to his lariats, normals, and spd.
Right now his punch lariat alternates between hitting frames, frames where he hits behind him, and non-hitting frames; it goes, “7 frames hitting, 5 non-hitting, 5 hitting, 5 non-hitting, 5 back turned (ie hitting the other way), 5 non-hitting, 5 hitting, 5 non-hitting, 5 back turned, 5 non-hitting, 5 hitting, 3 non-hitting.” Barely more than a third of the total lariat frames hit opponents in front of Gief, and after the first hitting frames, only 15 in 53 actually hit. I’d change this so that all hitting frames hit both front and back so that there are no exclusively back-turned frames, the first large-hitbox hitting section hits for 10 frames, there are fewer non-hitting frames, and the hitting frames after the first big-hitbox section are all a bit more vulnerable mid at the exact level of Dictator’s standing roundhouse. But instead of just hitting/non-hitting, I’d make some hitting frames more vulnerable high. So it would be something like, “10 big-hitbox hitting, 4 non-hitting, 6 regular hitting, 4 non-hitting, 6 hitting but vulnerable, 4 non-hitting, 5 regular hitting, 4 non-hitting, 5 hitting but vulnerable, 4 non-hitting, 5 regular hitting, 3 non-hitting.” Just more than 60% of the lariat would be active hitting frames, but a good chunk of them slightly more vulnerable than usual. Lemme explain what I think this would do.
This would have virtually no effect on a bunch of his matchups, basically the normal+projectile characters I talked about a few posts up; in those matchups, Gief almost exclusively uses the lariat to get through projectiles, very rarely to do any actual hitting. I think buffing the lariat while making it a bit more vulnerable at Dictator’s standing roundhouse height would make it fine for Dic’s matchup, since his standing roundhouse/forward and slide would still work in zoning. Boxer’s fight would be pretty much the same since he already just wants to low rush lariats, although the more vulnerable high frames might make kick rushes easier for him as well. The real reasons for this change are the normal wall and mobile wall of doom matchups. I think this would be reasonably helpful against Dhalsim, Claw, Honda’s hands/headbutt, and Blanka’s horizontal ball, for example; even if hands, headbutt, and ball start trading half the time instead of hitting most of the time, that would be great for Gief. The lariat would be totally beatable low still, and the more vulnerable high frames and mid hitbox would make it beatable by some max-range or high-hitting normals, but those opponents would have to be a lot more thoughtful about how to keep Zangief out even as Zangief would still have to be thoughtful about when to lariat. I think those matchups would have to become a lot more interesting on both sides.
Also, I want a bit more range on standing short, crouching roundhouse, standing forward, and jab spd. Straight up, Gief needs to be able to play better footsies. I’m not talking about adding 25% more hitting hitbox to these things, I’m just saying to add several more pixels of length to them, arranging it so that max-range standing short can still tick into max range jab spd, just from a small bit farther away. Jab spd does the least damage of any spd already, less than some normal grabs even, but if this really bugs people then jab spd could do a bit less than it already does. I think Gief needs to be more dangerous from a tiny bit farther away than he already is in ways that aren’t just shenanigans.
I don’t think this will have much of an impact on Rog and Dictator, since those normals and the range on spd aren’t really why Zangief beats them in the first place. But I do think it’ll help out reasonably well against characters like Guile, Cammy, Fei, Claw, etc. Anyone who makes it hard for Gief to footsie his way in will become mildly easier for Zangief. The only characters I think would be actually hurt by this might be Ryu and Ken, but frankly, whatever. It’s now harder to meaty and pressure Ken than it was in ST, aka pretty hard, so I’d be fine with Gief having a slightly better footsie game against him. The only character I’d worry about would be Ryu, but honestly I don’t think it’d be a big deal if this matchup turned from evenish or slightly in Gief’s favor to a not-dominating win for Zangief.
I don’t even care about giving him a whiff animation. Just adjust the abilty to store the thing.
Despite the great job Sirlin did, I bet he kept the stored throw b/c Honda is his favorite character. There is no other explination for it. Shoot, if i was toning the game down, I am sure Sim wouldn’t be as nerfed. It is the nature of the situation however huge conflict of interest may be.
Honda’s doesn’t need it. It is too powerful. It is more powerful than may of the other things deemed too powerful/ good/ easy/ strong that were changed.
But, it is in the game. The game will more than likey get NOT GET patched. So… we need to live with it. :bottle:
Personally, If I had to choose I would leave the game play as is, and have them focus on the all the little System/ Network bugs. So the damn thig stops crashing in rooms and matches… :annoy:
All good suggestions. Especially the Lariat ones. I like the very scientific way you approached it, analyzing the hit boxes and such. Agreed that if it hit more often in front so that it traded with Blanka Rolling Attacks and had a better chance of hitting Honda’s Headbutt, it would help a whole lot. I do think the Kick Lariat needed more low invincibility. As it is now, I’ve never seen ANYONE use the low invincibility to help them. The Towards + Fierce Hop trumps anything the Kick Lariat can accomplish.
Here’s how I would have fixed Honda.
Jab Headbutt would have no more full invincibility. It would have vulnerable hit boxes low, akin to Dhalsim’s slide. It would work as anti-air, but lose to low kicks., but still beat things like Bison’s Stand Roundhouse and other mid-pokes. Meaty low kicks would beat it, a good low poking game would beat it, but it would still work decently as a way to beat other moves, so it doesn’t COMPLETELY change the way he plays. Fierce and Strong Headbutts would get similar vulnerable low hit boxes.
Strong Headbutt would travel only half a screen’s length but move as fast as the Fierce Headbutt. Coupled with the new Jab headbutt that eats Fireballs, if you predict the enemy will fake a Fireball, you can throw in a Strong Headbutt to get halfway across the screen in the opening you get from the Fireball fake, and it recovers faster so you can “punish” opponents for faking a Fireball by closing the gap. It won’t affect non-Fireball characters because, up close, it’ll behave exactly the same as a Fierce Headbutt. And it might allow for some Strong Headbutt into Oicho tricks, like Blanka but slower. But it encourages Honda to move forward and attack.
All Buttslams would get complete low invincibility, like a Hyper Fighting Zangief Kick Lariat, so they can beat sweeps. Short Buttslam will have full invincibility on the way up and hit MUCH quicker, making it a more effective as a wake-up move. Forward one will not be invincible the entire way up (would stay about the same as it is now) but would also hit maybe 3 or 4 frames quicker than it does now, allowing for the pianoing of Short and Forward Buttslams, though the Short one would still be the best one. So it would become his main wake-up move since Jab Headbutt is more vulnerable, but unlike the current Jab Headbutt, it can be punished if Blocked.
Short Buttslam will NOT hit on its way down (I’d change the animation frame he uses on the way down). In fact, it’ll probably lose any hitting frames half-way up, so it’s not like a Hyper Fighting Ken Fierce invincible DP on the way up since its entirely invulnerable on the way up. He’d probably go up and, half-way up, transition into his regular Jumping animation. But it will have next to no delay upon landing… maybe 2 or 3 frames longer than Ken’s Fierce DP. This allows for easier passing through Fireballs because it’s invincible the entire way up. And since it recovers so fast, it’s harder for Shotos to sweep it in time after it lands because you can do the Short Buttslam earlier than before to pass through Fireballs with its full invincibility on the way up. But since it doesn’t hit on the way down, it’s really easy to counter up close, and can’t be used for free against non-Fireball characters. Of course, that opens up mind games with the Forward version… if you THOUGHT he was gonna do the Short one and try baiting it, he could do the forward one which might clip you on the way down to be safe. But since the Forward one has less invincibility, it can actually be beaten by other DP-like moves on the way up. Roundhouse version will not hit on the way up at all, just like the behavior it has now.
First Headbutt of the Super would be a fraction slower (I think it’s stupid how he can hit a Fireball from a screen away just on reaction, no prediction necessary at all), but 2nd Headbutt would be SUPER fast. First hit won’t knock down anymore, so no more anti-air Super BS. With the second Headbutt faster, it should be fast enough to Combo even when hitting Ryu’s arms from a Fireball AND would not allow for DP’ing in between hits when Blocked.
I hate the way the new Oicho looks. It just looks terrible the way he bounces away from the opponent though the animation still has the physics of him bouncing over the opponent. It’s tacky looking. I would change it so that Oicho always throws the opponent behind him. So he basically grabs them and throws them over his head (which would actually be really awesome looking) and bounces over them as before, but maybe just a tad farther away. That prevents repeated corner BS but still allows for two in a row if HE is in the corner and grabs you. And of course, Stored Oicho would be gone faster than you can say “Dosukoi!!”.
I’ve always dabbled in the idea of making Handslap QCF + Kick, giving him a move to use when not charging and making it so he loses charge when using it, so he can’t use it while still charging for Headbutts and Buttblams. But a TON of extra balancing would be needed, because that would make the move really buff, so making it so that he has to perform the move for a short period of time before it stops would help (so you can jump it and punish him like a Fireball). Damage of the move and how vulnerable it would be would have to be tested.
And of course, all of this would be play tested to see if any thing is broken, and tweaked accordingly. But the main goal is clear: give Honda better offensive weapons, encourage him to attack more, weaken his defense, but try not to change his overall play style TOO much.
Right; the main issue I see with Honda is that the risk/reward that is a bit skewed. Most high-priority moves tend to be unsafe on block or whiff. Likewise most safe-on-block moves tend to have lower priority, startup lag, etc. The headbutt (and handslap to a certain extent) don’t fit that model. The headbutt has DP/flashkick-like priority/invlunerability, yet is safe on block.
Those changes are interesting, but I think they’re a lot more sweeping than they need to be.
I think I’d change Honda’s antiair game by getting rid of jab headbutt’s invincibility, so that moves that hit his back will either beat or trade with the headbutt. I don’t think this would be a big problem for Honda provided that he gets his standing fierce chop back as his default fierce normal. He’d have to decide which antiair to use, jab headbutt for things in front of him or standing fierce for things above him (or either against opponent-specific things), or whether to just sit on his opponent by buttslamming through the air attack and landing on their head, and that’d be fine I think. I’d also be fine with the super not juggling, just always doing full damage on the ground.
I don’t think he needs such strong buttslams. I think his buttslams could use a slight speed boost, nothing too fast, just a bit more speed. Other than that, I think they’re pretty solid as is. As far as going from far to mid range goes, I think that’s about all I’d change. The more controllable jumping fierce is already the big change anyway, and jab headbutt and jumping short are definitely enough.
I also really want his standing forward/short sweeps from O Honda assigned to back/toward like the back/toward+roundhouse sweep, and I think he needs a good quick, close cancelable sweep again, so give him back his old crouching fierce. Frankly I’d love to totally redesign Honda as a mix of the best of N and O Honda, with walking jab slaps, cancelable standing and crouching jab, and the walking sweeps, standing fierce, and crouching fierce, but I know walking slaps are pretty unpopular with most people and he doesn’t absolutely need them or the cancelable jabs, so I think that’s good.
So to build on R Honda:
–ochio whiff animation, no ochio storing
–jab headbutt loses invincibility
–buttslam moves slightly faster
–super no longer juggles but still does full damage on the ground
–standing fierce chop is default fierce normal, N Honda standing fierce poop is toward+fierce
–toward/back+short and toward/back+forward are O Honda’s walking sweeps
–crouching fierce is O Honda’s crouching fierce sweep
I think this would make him mildly better at getting in, mildly better at footsies, and a bit worse at keeping people out, and that’s pretty much all he needs. He doesn’t to get much better or worse at anything; after this, it’s up to the characters he beats to get better for those matchups to get closer to even.
Those sound like reasonable tweaks. Honda would still be deadly in the hands of a master (and rightly so) but the effectiveness/difficulty curve will be more in line with the current half of the cast that he beats easily now.
I’m no pro by any means but it’s always seemed funny to me that so many players use Honda as their “payback” character online and are actually somewhat dangerous with him, even though their mains are a lot less effective.
DUH. I totally forgot!! I’d COMPLETELY change most of Honda’s normals back to O.Honda style. Yes! Old Standing Fierce, old Crouching Fierce, original Stand Short and Forward… but I’d leave Crouching Short ST style (so you can still buffer it into Buttslams)… but yes, I would definitely give him back his original Normal Moves.
The problem with the Jab Headbutt change is that it’s not the anti-air part that’s a problem. It’s that, along with Stored Oicho, that make it impossible for people tofight him from the front. So if you see Cammy twitch, you can almost always Jab Headbutt and be safe. The only option she has is to psychically DP the Jab Headbutt, and she loses that guessing game.
The reason I had for making Buttslams so much better was because I don’t want Honda to lose a universal Wake-up move that beats ground and air. The Jab Headbutt is just simply too useful how it is, so it NEEDS vulnerable frames or a HUGE delay. A Huge delay changes it fundamentally TOO MUCH, because it’ll affect how it lands when it erases Fireballs and such as well. So it feels like you have to make it vulnerable somehow. But taking away the full invincibility of the Jab Headbutt is WAY too unfair to Honda, as it would make him the ONLY character who has to guess high or low Meaty attacks and pick the right anti-air, whereas everyone else has one move that works. So I’d trade the Jab Headbutt for the Short Buttslam. I can’t think of any other way to make the Jab Headbutt fair to non-fireball characters, yet not completely useless for Honda anymore.
^^ Agreed. I don’t think he needs the Heabbutt nerf. I think the original Jab headbutt is fine.
I think if they did a little mix and match between (N.Honda + O.Honda) like what they did with Hawk ( N. Hawk & O. Hawk) plus a couple other minnor tweaks you’d have a well rounlded Honda.
PS. I kind of miss the O. Honda Jab > HHS combo. But it may be too powerfull given all the other adjustments just we are discussing. Not sure how I feel about it. But felt I needed to bring it up.
PSS. It is funny how all the great posts on Honda appear in darn near every thread besides the actuall Honda thread…
Nerf:
Remove oichyo throw period
Nerf hundred hand slap block damage to the stone age
Remove invulnerable startup on buttslams
Auto redring anyone’s xbox when they select honda
