I refuse to give into the tactic of ‘counter-picking’ Ryu or Deejay when someone picks Honda. Then what will they do, counter pick my new character? The type of game that requires that does not appeal to me. Gief should have a chance to defeat Honda, even if it’s an uphill battle (such as Sim or Guile fights are). He shouldn’t lose ‘for free’ against Honda.
On the contrary, I’ll respond tactfully as long as someone hasn’t come into the thread with his fists swinging about.
Margalis stepped in and immediately began with the insults (which tendency he apparently hasn’t shed these ten to fifteen years past). Why should I have afforded him any civility, at that point?
By contrast, Nohoho respectfully and politely provided me with a link to the NKI video that countered my claim. I thanked him for it and that was that. No ire was exchanged between us, he was mature enough not to seek to gain face by talking trash. See how that works?
You suggest that the certainty with which I wrote what I did meant that I forfeited any civil response, but sorry, I’m not going to be held accountable for someone else’s hypersensitivity. If you don’t like it when someone speaks confidently, that’s your problem, friend.
Can we move on, now, please? No one really cares about this. Let’s talk about Street Fighter.
Honda vs Zangief is slightly easier for Zangief in Remix. Better kick lariat and a faster running grab helps. It’s not ‘for free’.
That line of conversation wouldn’t exist without your own personal involvement.
I was talking about Street Fighter too, but you neither quoted nor responded to the parts of my post that did.
Counter-picking isn’t even an option on scoreboards, but if you land a bad matchup it goes on your (presumably) permanent record.
Shrug Surely you don’t deny me the right to defend myself against attack.
Should I have?
Low tiers might lose to anything in repetition, so I’m not really about that. I don’t think that mid-tier and top-tier balance are necessarily mutually exclusive, though, and that in the name of growing or at least preserving the fighting game community thought should at least be given to what the experience of a typical, active player might be. Somebody who calls Honda broken and quits the game might instead go on to play, play, play - recruiting friends in the process - if things were just a little bit different.
I didn’t state or imply that the game should be balanced around rank beginners, only that the opinions of the majority should not be discounted. If I were balancing the game, I would at least look at matchups on a macro level, not just the matchups and opinions of top-ranked players. This is how it seemed to work with Warcraft 3 during its active development and patching periods, and I think they did a pretty laudable job all things considered.
Yeah, the better lariat combined with the weaker hands hitbox means that the fight is a little more manageable. Honda used to get free slaps after a max range jump in for free chip damage, but now Gief can just lariat through it and score a knockdown into a mixup. So, that’s nice.
Buffing Hawks DP would be optimal. It would really balance him a lot more and wouldn’t take him over the top like you stated above.
I really think just this alone would change a ton of his fights for the better.
I don’t, I just think it’s hypocritical to say that you want to move on and talk about Street Fighter while in the process of doing neither.
You’ve asserted across several posts that Claw is a one-dimensional character that only plays off the walls. It’s been pointed out that his dives were nerfed in Remix, eliminating his classic shenanigan game. Across 2000+ (?) PSN Remix games I still haven’t really encountered wall games outside of mirror matches. I also mained Claw for most of my time with Remix and my own game was ground-based. You’re not required to respond, but in absence of evidence I would personally think it safe to conclude that your points were based on outdated observations.
I would have really liked to have seen what we, the loyal ST gamers, could have done with those really buff versions of Fei, Gief, and Hawk.
I’m actually getting tired of seeing all this negativity towards Zangief and Hawk. I play against good to extremely good competition every night and my Zangief and Hawk are doing very well. There are players here who can back me up on this.
Yes, they struggle against a couple of characters still but their improvements have made most of their “impossible” matchups in the past, much easier now.
i was raped by your gief today!
Honda does not make Remix more unbalanced than vanilla ST. Honda is MORE balanced in Remix than he was in ST. But that’s like saying pancakes without powdered sugar is healthier for you.
I would say that, overall, Remix IS more balanced. But the degree at how much more balanced and HOW that balance was achieved is the debatable part.
- James
No one has, for what I can tell. No one in this thread has suggested that we SHOULD listen to n00bs. In fact, making that claim never helps anyone’s position, because it’s a loaded statement. It goes in all directions. Anyone on here could be a total n00b, as can anyone you’ve played online. You can come up and claim to me you’ve beaten a ton of Hondas with your Cammy online, but I could just say all the Hondas you played were n00bs. If we shouldn’t listen to n00bs, then who in this thread, right now, is worthy to make suggestions?
- James
Absolutely not. I went to a couple of ST arcade tournaments in the past few weeks and it’s actually amazing how quickly I’ve forgotten about how some of the changes in remix affect things.
I mean, there’s the obvious stuff. O.Sagat, Vega, and Chun are way bigger sluts than their counterparts in Remix. But a lot of other things matter too. What’s funny about all this recent Honda hate is that he was actually quite a bit more powerful in ST in some respects. It’s easy to forget that the dizzy he gets from the Ochio in that game is absurd. The change to how he lands after the Ochio and his stored super also makes him more dangerous in many fights.
Don’t get me wrong, I think further tweaks could be made to Honda, Hawk, Cammy, etc. that even things out a bit more or make the matches more “fun” to play. I certainly have ideas of how I would change things. Still, in a game with 289 different match-ups if we’re only arguing about a handful of those being bad, then I think things are pretty good.
Objection. Throwing Fireballs takes some form of strategy. I’m not saying Honda doesn’t take strategy, but I can use Honda. I can’t use Ryu. I try to “spam fireballs” and I die all day long. I sit there with Honda and I win. Spamming Fireballs is about 5x harder than turtling with Honda. I do not think that can be debated. One wrong Fireball equals potential 40% life and maybe a dizzy. There is an inherent, built-in weakess to the Fireball strategy. There is NO inherent weakness built in to the turtling Honda strategy. Which is WHY I hate Stored Oicho, because the INHERENT BUILT-IN WEAKNESS of turtling is that you can throw them when they least expect it. But Honda even has a way to stop that.
He doesn’t have one. But lemme ask you this, then. If Honda dies to everyone’s Fireballs, why are we giving Honda buffs to fight that? Why not give everyone ELSE nerfs to make Honda compete? Easy: by fixing Honda, you can tackle all of the problems at once, since it’s his inherent character design that makes him weak against Fireball characters. By the same accord, wouldn’t we want to tweak HONDA to make him weaker against non-Fireball characters, since it’s HIS inherent character design that makes him too good against non-Fireball characters? Why is it a double standard? If he needs help against Fireball character, Buff HIM but if other characters all die to him, DON’T weaken him. Instead, try to delicately buff everyone else up in ways that don’t mess up every other match that they have.
That would actually be a really good solution. Let her go under those Fireballs, even at the start. She could do it in CvS2, didn’t make her murder Guile by a long shot. So if she could go under those two (Sonic Boom and Max-Out), I think it’d be a good way to make her better against them without becoming too buff to Ryu and Ken.
- James
I think this argument holds for lower levels of play but not at higher levels. All the top level Shoto/Sagat/Guile/DeeJay players can zone with fireballs in their sleep.
I disagree. I’ve said this earlier that weaking Honda just so non-fireball characters can compete against him will not help the worst characters in the game overall. The lower tier characters still really need some additional buffs to help them compete, not just against Honda but top tier characters as well.
How does taking something away from Honda help Cammy compete against Shotos? Against DeeJay? Against any other character she has trouble with?
Sirlin wasn’t trying to make a “healthy” (balanced) game, though. He wanted to keep the pancakes, which taste great (with or without powdered sugar) even though they aren’t nutritious.
He knew going in that people who come looking for pancakes probably aren’t going to by happy with health food (though a lot of them might complain that they’ve been eating pancakes for the past fifteen years).
No ire or disrespect meant, just rolling with your analogy, James.
The only real impossible match for hawk that got fixed was Sim with the safe dive. And that really didnt help too much since sim can still b.jab him out of it cleanly and zone hawk the fuck out. Honda and guile are hawks only other real impossible matches (and possibly a solid dj) and they [arguably since everyone disagrees with me] got worse because of the loss of a knockdown dive.