In 3S, Yun can defeat any character once he activates Genei-Jin (which happens way too often since Yun can build meter pretty fast). Ken & Chun Li also do pretty good against the majority of the cast. There are other characters that are good besides the top 3 but the top 3 clearly have advantage against most of the cast (just look at tournament results, match-ups, etc).
ST is fairly balanced but still, you can’t compare Cammy or T. Hawk to O. Sagat or Dhalsim.
True.
That sounds good on paper but unfortunately there’s always going to be certain characters that are good and some characters that are not so good.
Besides, not everybody is willing to take the time and effort necessary to learn a character who has a hard time against most of the cast (especially in America, not so much in Japan). Learning to use a top tier character who can do well against most of the cast sounds much more reasonable. Unfortunate, but it’s true.
In ST & GG most characters can do well but there are still tiers. Obviously, the difference between top and bottom isn’t as drastic and in CvS2 or MvC2 but one can still notice that certain characters do better than others.
Back on the topic of system changes, even though CvS2 is my favorite game I didn’t really like having CvS2-like CCs in CFE (well, except for Sakura’s Shoshosho & Karin’s annoying I’m-gonna-chip-you-to-death CC). Maybe using the CC rules from A3 or A2, who knows.
You’re giving a really extreme example. Obviously, having two characters in a game would just be ridiculous; however, I think having 200, or even 56 or 45 characters in a game, is also just a bit wacky; how many completely unique, interesting characters can you possibly have in a game that are still worth using on a competitive level? I think 20 +/- 5 is a fine number.
A lot of people are bound to win a major with Yun, Chun and Ken more partly based on the fact that they’re more commonly-used than anyone else. However, that doesn’t invalidate the fact that there ARE people out there like Hayao, Kuroda, Aruka, Yuki Otoko, etc. who definitely have shown that they have more than enough potential to win a top level tournament with their characters.
Like I said before, that really doesn’t invalidate what I said before. Also, on the subject of Yun, I think a lot of people just plain don’t understand how to fight Yun, but that’s tangental…
True - Cammy is probably the only character that is truly lost in competitive play, though. Even then, perhaps not - there were some pretty impressive Cammy displays at the Evo regionals this year.
I know, it’s just an ideal. It doesn’t bother me much when there are only a few characters that aren’t tournament worthy (I play ST, 3S, and GGSlash competitively); however, I think there’s something seriously wrong when only about 1/4th of the characters in the game stand any sort of chance when you make it to the top. I’m not talking about abolition of tiers - fat fucking chance that’ll ever happen; however, if you can play a game and see people making it to the top with characters like Elena, Jam, T.Hawk, Cody, etc. any character that is mid or lower…then that, in my opinion, says good things about your game.
On the subject of this in relation to CFE, CFE’s characters/character selection sucks, because even at a mere 21 characters, you have blandness, and a bit too much tier disparity. Sure, there are SOME mid-tier characters that can hang at the top…but it’s hard to say which ones, considering how matchup-based the game can be. That’s what that big list of changes I posted is geared towards: the ideal of making CFE a game better without necesarily expanding it, by substituting ‘clone’ characters with more interesting characters, and taking characters that are unique, or have the potential to be unique, and giving them things that can give them a fighting chance, as well as make them fun to play.
thanks for the info much appreciated, anone know how to combo into cobra blow, or at least es cobra blow tried everything, also is playing anarkis in cfj the same as in vampire, like universal.
anybody got some good alpha countering skills i can’t seem to do the alpha counter correctly i can’t do it i am slow can’t anyone give me tips on how the alpha counter better
and this could have been good if it had more modes of play and more charicters
Having greater number of useable characters always trumps ratio of useable characters. Depending on how high you go up the skill ladder, you’re always going to have to throw out characters as they become “useless” (how useless is relative and depends on the game, of course). So all that really matters is how many characters you end up with that are still useable at the highest level. There is effectively no difference between a game with 20 really good characters out of 25 and a game with 20 really good characters out of 100 - in the end, you still have a game with 20 really good characters. Obviously, the former looks better on paper since it has a higher quality ratio of good characters, but this means nothing in practical terms.
I’m all for doubling CFJ’s cast. It might not double the number of really good characters, but the number of really good characters would very likely increase.
Indeed, prior to the game’s release, I said that the only way they would get the game to be accepted is either a) they redrew all the sprites (admit it, the main reason nobody wants to play the game, besides the fact that the gameplay is incredibly recycled, is the fact that it looks like MUGEN), or b) had a minimum of 40 characters. Since no one expects Capcom to actually put in the work to redraw characters, the least they could do is add some more characters.
I liked the list Return of Shiki put up earlier, with the boss from each series. BUt seriously: Fuck Dan. Put Rolento in that spot and you have a winner.
skankin garbage:
> A lot of people are bound to win a major with Yun, Chun and Ken more partly based on the fact that they’re more commonly-used than anyone else. However, that doesn’t invalidate the fact that there ARE people out there like Hayao, Kuroda, Aruka, Yuki Otoko, etc. who definitely have shown that they have more than enough potential to win a top level tournament with their characters.
I’d like to point out that, their skill notwithstanding, the format of Japanese tournaments (single elimination) allows for far more random characters winning than in the West, hence why you see those names showing up at all. If Japan switched to double elimination tournaments, the number of these random mid/low tier placing highly/winning tournaments would be drastically reduced. So I wouldn’t use them as any kind of indication of those characters being useable at the highest level. Random fockery aside, you don’t win with the likes of Alex, Hugo, etc. regularly unless you’re plain that much better than your opponent.
Ultima: I agree with everything you’ve said. But you should also say that you are impressed with half of the characters that made it into top tier and upper middle tier of CFJ. I mean, Kenji? Karin? Urien? Leo and Hauzer in upper middle tier? Don’t lie - you’ve gotta be impressed by that.
Maj: Well, I never said I was unimpressed with CFJ’s tier list or anything. Actually, my post had nothing to do with CFJ’s tiers, since I haven’t really followed them beyond “Jedah/Anakaris kill everyone”. I like hearing about the tiers, but I have no stake in them or anything since I don’t play the game (don’t own it, and don’t have anyone to play against even if I did).
I would have been very surprised if Urien, with practically all his enemies either removed or toned way down, was not in the upper half of the cast. I am a bit surprised about Hauzer, a character you once said Capcom put in the game on purpose to be a giant target for combos, is in the top half.
Haha, i guess i was trying to say that I’M impressed with the CFJ tier list. Hauzer was a surprise to me too, but it’s tough to go wrong with full-screen normals. Guile vs Leo is just painful to watch if you’re a Guile player. Or if you’re a fan of fair fights. The Warzard characters have one of the more versatile meter systems in the game, and it helps that a lot of Japanese players seem to prefer 3/5 round format.
But now that i think about it, “giant target for combos” and high tier ranking are definately not mutually exclusive. Wasn’t there some GamePro article that said MvC2 Sentinel is just a big combo dummy for Akuma? There are hella Sentinel-only combos in MvC2 game but he’s still way up there.
For those that say that ST is balanced, I’d have to agree with some random post I read that said ST is only balanced becuase of the high damage setting and the quick dizzies, this allows for just about any character to stand a chance in a battle off of just one opening. Thats why you see sometimes characters lose 75% health trying to get in on other characters and still have a chance to win once they do. Not that I know much about ST but I’ve seen some match vids and thats what I see.
Alot of people that are always talking shit about CFE are always saying that it is completly unbalanced. I dont really think it is. As far as fun factor, well it depends, fun compared to what? Your favorite fighting game? My favorite fighting game is MVC2 yet I still enjoy CFE. Do I wish CFE played like Marvel? Hell yeah, but I still find this very different game fun in its own way.
I guess the things that make me like CFE are:
Red Earth obviously.
Darkstalkers getting more exposure even though the cast is limited.
And no stupid Dan taking up space in the cast…FUCK Dan!!!:arazz:
:sad: