yeah i remember those days too,but would you still do now,i would still do it if i didn’t have a car.
Alright, stop. Go over to Tourney Results and pull 10 tourneys with ST in them (more than 5 entrants, if you don’t mind) this year. Go on.
A) MSH lasted until the next one came out. In case you didn’t notice, it’s just sort of an interim game, a test case. They had to break a few eggs before they came out with the best game in the entire world unless you’re over 21, MvC2. It’s not a bad game, but it reflects exactly what it is: A game made to test an engine/genre, in order to get the fifth one right finally. If this isn’t quite obvious enough, I’ll make ya a little chart:
WW -> CE -> HF -> ST
Xmen -> MSH-> XvsSF - > MvC -> MvC2
Capcom does this all the time. They make a game, then they make another and another until finally they get what they wanted the first time. Then you look back at the first one and say “What the fuck happened here?” But it only makes sense if you look at the Evolution.
B) The “Huge Fighting Game Community” was just the passersby that got sucked into the new genre. Any time something big and new comes out, the bandwagonners clamber on in full force and ride the wave. You can’t possibly expect that to last forever. When FF7 came out, a bunch of new fairweathers started playing RPGs. So what. Where are they now? They went back to playing Madden or Quake or whatever. They were never hardcore in the first place, they’re just asses to fill the seats.
**
If you don’t see the parallels here, you’re not trying very hard. I’ll make you another little word problem.
Gran Tourismo:
Guy A is just a casual scrub. He picks a ferrari because they’re fast, and auto-tran because he’s lazy. He doesn’t know the courses, nor can he be bothered to learn them. He shouldn’t have to, he’s generally a pretty good driver.
Guy B has a rice-rocketed Honda he tweaked himself using an FAQ he found online. He studies the tracks and plays all of the time.
Regardless of how good a driver Guy A is, unless he’s overwhelmingly more naturally skilled than Guy B, it’s a no-contest. Guy B could probably lap him. Is this the fault of the game for adding more features, or is it the lack of experience on the part of Guy A at fault? If he wanted to learn, he could easily just ASK Guy B how to do these things. But he’s old school, he doesn’t want to. He’s still playing RC Pro-Am, because it’s balanced.
This is the same way Marvel works. If you’re a half-decent player of ANYTHING, you should be able to pick up on what’s happening and do reasonably well against average competition. If you’re playing against Guy B in this scenario, you’re simply overmatched. Experience counts. You could watch a video and learn tactics, hell I learned the Mags and Ironman infinites just from match vids and I don’t even play Marvel often (read: Ever). People who don’t play racing games have no effing clue what gear suspension does. If someone were to simply jump right in and try to play Gran Tourismo against even medium level players, they’d get trounced.
A) Again. People complained because SF games weren’t adding anything. Now you complain because they did. If you’ve no better ideas than “Keep playing ST”, then your version of Capcom would’ve gone bankrupt years ago.
B) Outside of the big, absurd SNK motions (Goddamn Raging Storm) every motion save maybe two are adopted from ST. All of them. If you’re so oldschool, it should only cost you a quarter to try out all of the moves you can think of. And. Again. CvS2 is not meant for people who have never seen a fighting game before. It’s a game made FOR FANS OF FIGHTING GAMES. People who have never seen Rugal or Yun before have no business complaining about not being immediately familiar with the game. It’s designed purposely in an advanced way for people who already have a foot in the door. They can’t hold your hand forever.
N - A/V combos are scrubby, but it’s not the end of the world. Adapt.
Your point would make more sense if not for the fact that MSH was a much better game than XvSF, MvSF and MVC1.
Notice that I’m not complaining about additions per se. Even though I’m using it as an example, I don’t prefer ST. Even though I’m slagging it, I prefer A3 (and the evolved-but-simple SFEX!)
As for suggesting something better- there are plenty of things.[list][]Polygon graphics are the most obvious one (not necessarily 3D gameplay). Like it or not, 2D is dead and 3D is the only way forward. It also permits for more in the way of the gimmicks/fancy extras that you like so much.
[]Analog Control is another. What with superjump, doublejump, dash, run, crouch, block, parry and roll, this could all be much simplified with a stick that wasn’t 8-way digital. And remember that SF1 experimented with analog buttons…
[*]Character damage/injuries? People slag racers and NFLers that don’t have this, and where else is it more relevant than a beat-em up?
[/list]There are probably dozens of others, but I’m not a professional game designer…
so you are saying ACCESSIBILITY is the problem? you can’t just pick up SF and learn it like you used to be able to, therefore noone plays it?
why do people play CS and quake then? you really think that you can learn that by “everyday logic” (whatever your argument about Gran Turismo is)? How is getting fucked up in Marvel cause you don’t know shit any different to getting fucked up in Quake?
it’s got nothing to do with “everyday logic” or having to look up stuff in FAQs
it’s because
a) people dont want to go to arcades to play games
b) people dont want to put in money every time they get fucked up by an opponent
to me, that’s the pretty obvious flaw, and NOT the features of the game. to say high level FPS play is less complicated than high level CvS2 is ridiculous.
^ Well, yeah, I get your point that arcades are dead anyway (obviously Capcom had nothing to do with that) But even if they weren’t dead (ie, travel back to 1998), the people in those arcades were too busy on the skiing machine to notice SF.
But anyway, about FPS games- for the most part, yeah, my point works for them too. Aside from learning the CS map and maybe getting some weapon data, you just use everyday skills and don’t need to know anything about “the system” or about commands. Just buy a weapon that has the behavior you want, and then go around using standard gaming/real-life strategies such as stealth and teamwork. Why would anybody need a FAQ for that?
Oh, I didn’t realize I’d said that…
The problem is low level vs. low level.
Joining a Quake game is pretty simple. You hit your server, choose your character model…done.
In CVS you are presented with a variable roster depending on ratios and 6 grooves. If you choose a new groove the second game, your controls may actually change.
Quake is not an easy game to get good at, but it is an easy game to start playing at a basic level and understand what is going on. Even team-based games like CS are pretty easy to understand.
CVS2 and MVC2 are not that easy to understand, because there are too many up-font options that make a big difference in gameplay. It doesn’t ramp up.
In old Capcom games the character select and all the garbage before you start is straightforward. Choose a character, done. Now you can get lost before you even start playing.
It isn’t clear to me that some of that complication (especially in the case of CVS2) really adds something to the game. I would prefer some game engine tweaks personally.
CvS was never meant to be a beginner’s game. It’s designed from the ground up as a fan title, for people who are already into fighting games. If you don’t already play at least SF or KoF a lot, it wasn’t meant for you (not you specifically, that’s just the easiest noun to use).
I strongly feel that the newer games are offering more options not to hide blatant discrepancies or overcomplicate the game, but to add depth and customization that were impossible with the past crop of fighters. After playing through the various incarnations of fighting games, the new crowd is generally familiar with how fighting games work, people are comfortable in their own playstyles, so they want to cater to that and allow everyone to use a setting that is best for each user individually.
If we’re going to make FPS parallels (which is a bad idea, I think we were a lot closer using racing) it’s like how everyone uses a different config, hotkeys, and weapon. People who’ve been playing a while have their own settings that they know make them most comfortable and play to the best of their natural ability, and generally also have a favourite weapon. Some people just XCopy other top players and railgun everything. Either way, it’s all about personal preference and/or optimal performance.
N
Okay.
Let’s say that Warcraft 3 is an arcade game, to make an accurate comparison. You come in, you see 4 races to pick. Races handles resources in different ways - completely changing the way you play. You pick whichever one sounds coolest (as someone would probably do in CvS2 with no knowledge). The game starts, you see some guys walking around. You sit there and pump peons while trying to find out how to build better stuff, then you get rushed by your local war3 expert who read up tactics on the internet, and lose. You just lost your quarter - are you going to play again?
What Thongboy said about configs and stuff stands. Lets take another example, UT2k4 (i don’t really know much about it. just let me know if i’m completely wrong). There are different modes of play (assault, etc), different weapons, and some kind of thing you can charge up as far as i know that gives you a speed boost and stuff. I would have NO clue what the different modes are, or how the speed boost stuff works the first time playing. I would put in a quarter, get fucked up, and go play something else I know.
The list goes on, Battlefield 1942, even CS to some extent (you telling me that with zero knowledge of the game, you know how to plant and disarm a bomb, know what weapons to buy, know to buy armor, know enough NOT to get killed 10 rounds straight?)
Yes, I agree CvS2 would be complex to the casual player. No, I don’t see how it’s more complex from popular PC games.
And damn Richard, since SF doesn’t have any “everyday logic”, I’m surprised people played World Warrior at all. Doing a fireball motion is so counter intuitive and all.
Remember that arcade FPS, War or something? I’m sure it failed not necessarily because it was a bad game, but because of the fact it was an arcade game.
Wow. I’ve been scratching my head because of some of the responses in this thread. My thoughts:
1.SF2WW wasn’t intuitive at all. People flocked to it because it’s was the right game at the right time. There nothing really to compare it to so you had to accept what it gave you as compared to today.
2.The only thing constant is change. If the game’s are too weird for you then quit playing them. They aren’t for you. Play your old games. Don’t knock folks like SNK for trying to keep their games fresh. They don’t wanna make the same exact game and I don’t blame them. Think of fighting games like Ryu would. Would Ryu stop wanting to excel? Hell no! If a game has a ton of subsystems and whatnot and it’s still broken it’s just because of a lack of play testing and planning. Simple does equal good.
3.Honor is fucking weak. It’s lame ass excuse for people not playing how you want them to.
4.Don’t hate the player, hate the game. Don’t blame Choi for picking V-Sak, blame Capcom for making her the little whore she is. It’s not the players fault the game’s imbalanced, why should he try and play referee and game maker didn’t? Anything else is make-believe playing.
5.Fighting games take insane work and smarts to be great at. They’re generally hard to learn and you have to have the right attitude to even last long enough to get decent. You can’t be scared to lose. This fucks the casual player who wants to hang with their local arcade dominator. As long as Joe Scrub gets on the machine first time playing and expects to be king of the hill the scene won’t get any better.
If I had a choice between sacrificing innovation in fighters for having a SF2WW arcade style scene again or letting the scene go on as it is now I’d let it keep going on the way it is now.
I’m not sure if you are disagreeing with me or not…PC games don’t make good arcade games…War3 would be a terrible arcade game yes.
The point is, at some point Capcom fighters DID make good arcade games.
I don’t think anyone is arguing against innovation. What they are arguing about it stupid shit that adds nothing to a game. CVS2 would be a better game with 1 groove, a better engine and better character designs. Instead of 6 grooves, a weak engine and characters that are all over the place.
Despite the fact that CVS2 has a lot of grooves and groove-specific stuff, the gameplay doesn’t feel any deeper than any other game out there.
Again, I don’t think its a “more features vs. less features” argument, more like “less crap features that add nothing.” All this complexifying hasn’t made the games any better. The CVS2 and A2 engine are basically the same but the A2 engine feels better…that’s progress? I don’t think A3 isms add much to the game either, nor does mashing to reduce damage, red flashes, blue blocking, etc.
WRONG.
It failed because it was both.
That game sucked.
I remember how much easier it was to do a crouching fierce with Ryu/Ken instead of that complicated “All-You-Can” motion that other people tried doing…
Then all of a sudden, CvS2 comes out, and now it’s waaaay too complicated. I gotta press jab and short at the same time to roll??? That’s too complicated, yo…
Eventually, after a week of practice (cuz everyone else was playing that game instead of the older Street Fighter cabinets at the local arcade), I managed to hit those 2 buttons at the same time, and BAM, my Blanka had little shadows following him.
People…it’s not that hard…
Forgive the sarcasm in this post, please
Way to miss the point, again.
Pressing jab & short adds what, exactly?
Are the 6 grooves in CVS2 any better than the 3 in A3, or the 1 in A2? No.
Rolls add a new movement option in CvS2. Good or bad it’s debatable but that’s what it adds.
You’re being selective. The 6 Grooves in CvS2 are not better then the 3 in A3 or the 1 in A2. You have to realize that the 6 Grooves are better than the 2 in CvS1, the 1 one A1, the 1 in EX1, etc. Change can be either good or bad, saying that change is bad is silly.
Did you know (jcase) that they went from 2 characters in SF1 to 8 in SF2!!! :eek: . How did anyone ever handle the change? I’ll give you the answer; SF2 was actually a better game because they added stuff (crazy I know)!!! If you can name any series/genre that remained the same 100% throughout it’s life then I’ll give you tons of money (Canadian Tire money mind you, but still…) Hell, even Tetris added more modes and stuff in the new version.
Damn it I just want to play Tetris. Now I have to select between this Time Mode, Survival, then I have to select my level and height… WTF???
I’m going to say this again:
Debating whether or not extras add or detract from a game, in general, is a waste of time.
Specifically, the extras in CVS2 add little to the game, and detract in terms of understandability and the opportunity cost of doing something else more worthwhile. A3 also has many features that add nothing to the game, and therefore detract. (Adding nothing while adding more complexity is an overall loss)
In MVC2 I think you can say that all the features add to the game.* They add another element, another dimension. They work together to create a whole. CVS2, and to a lesser extent A3, are a disparate collection of unrelated features, some of which are nice and some of which suck.
Someone like Apoc obviously understands these systems; the problem is not that they are too confusing or too complicated for us. The problem is they are added at the sacrifice of core gameplay. That’s opportunity cost. (Look it up)
Despite all the extra features, CVS2 is barely better than CVS1. In some ways CVS1 is more fun. (In that broken, XvSF, everyone has something abusable sort of way) The core gameplay of CVS2 is weak.
It’s like the new Final Fantasy games piling on new system after new system. It adds nothing other than newness itself.
- Excluding trivia like mashing to get up from supers faster, which adds nothing but is a pretty minor feature.
Yep, the only feature I really hate in Marvel is the necessity of mashing to do things. Mash to recover from knockdowns! Mash to get out of hypergrav! Mash to do damage on supers! Mash to do damage on throws! Compare to, say, GGXX or VF, where mashing helps recovery on very specific moves that are always accompanied by a wiggling joystick icon, and that’s it.
The equivalent in CvS2 would be the arbitrary way safe fall/delayed getup are handed out to different grooves. It’s not like they make much of a difference, and new players are likely to forget.
I think that 90% of the Capcom cast in MvC2 is a feature that does not add to the game.
Hey dude, if it’s a waste of time, then why did you go on to talk about the CvS2 extras? Truth be told, I got some time to waste, but in your post it feels kinda…weird…weird being a nice word
I don’t completely disagree with this, but it’s not as though they (Capcom) were intent on screwing up the game. Their reach simply exceeded their grasp on this one. On paper, CvS2 is a great game. It was just too big to make everything work out properly. Like I said before, Capcom tends to have a slow, steady evolution of games before they get it really right. Being able to pick from all of the major systems from Capcom/SNK games of the past IS a very cool idea, but hell, they can’t know how it’s going to turn out until it’s much too late.
The thing I want to impress upon everyone is that Capcom is really pushing into completely unknown territory with all of these new games. It’s not like with other companies, where they can wait until after Capcom sets the tone and then (maybe) improve upon it. They make an active effort to improve every time they make a game, whereas many other companies don’t even want to risk it. I don’t think we give them enough credit for sticking with us so long.
N
MVC2 has a lot of features but they are all good and make for a deep game:
assists - wow they add this amazing dimension to the game that no other fighter has. it does make the game more complicated but also deeper. choice of team is actually very important in this game as a result.
DHC - allows you to come up with so many cool combos, tag out safely, fake people out, and makes the choice of team and lineup order that much more important.
regarding top tier easy mode characters - yeah it sux. people stopped going to arcades because its no longer fun. no one likes losing to team scrub, no one likes to play against cable, its boring and frustrating. i’ve played for 3 years because i love the game. but in these 3 years i’ve seen many people quit out of frustration. i don’t blame them. when i play at the arcade i want to have casual fun. cable vs cable is not fun, its tedious. team scrub is the ultimate in easy mode. you can have little skill with the game and yet beat people much better than you. my one friend does this all the time. there’s a limit to how well you can do without skill of course, but who cares? you’ll still lose to really good people, but you’ll win enough games, of course you’ll make it boring and frustrating for everybody else. lame. of course, by picking easy mode characters, everyone else has to pick easy mode characters as well, in order to compete, making it a vicious cycle of boring easy mode.
arcade games are supposed to be fun, otherwise there’s no point in playing them. winning is everything - in tournaments. casual play is for exactly that, a casual event that should be aboue enjoying the experience, not tearing your hair out.