Negro please. If they’ll be bothered to muck through my page-long ramble rants, the least folks could do is sift through a half-decent rebuttal.
N - I’ll read it.
Okay, I’m an idiot. I’ll bite. But this really is the last time. I feel like I walked into a grammar school debate.
“I never said the games shouldn’t change. I said that changes that add nothing to the game except needless complexity should be removed.”
His only response was something equivalent to, “Well that’s your opinion.”
REALLY!!! YOU THINK??? OH MY GAWD!!! Here I am, one single user, expressing his one single opinion and he… HE POINTED THAT OUT!!! GOD, WHAT CRUSHING LOGIC!!! MY WORLD COMES TUMBLING DOWN.
And then he goes right back to fabricated BS. So in this whole moutainous crap heap, the only direct response to what I actually said is to point out that my opinion is solely my own, which isn’t even an argument, just pointing out the obvious.
The rest was this:
“you think old skool players should be able to jump back in”
“you don’t want to learn anything new”
“if you like HF so much, go play that instead”
“change happens, deal with it.”
“you just want to complain and can’t suggest anything better”
In other words, all the arguments are attacking either ME or old skool players in general and not even discussing the ISSUE ITSELF. Why don’t we just cut to the chase and start saying Yo Momma jokes?
And the reason the responses I’m getting are in the form of attacks is because people get their panties in a wad when their game gets dissed.
So, the question is, do I waste yet another post refuting these straw man arguments that were basically made up and are irrelevant in the first place or do I just call it for BS and move on?
Three. Concise. Sentences.
A) What exactly is wrong with the new systems, aside from that you don’t feel they’re worth learning?
B) What would you propose in their stead?
C) If old-school games are so air-tight, why has the world moved on?
N - 
Does this help?
A) The problem is they add needless complexity to the game and therefore are not worth learning. ARE YOU REALLY THIS DENSE???
B) Getting rid of them because they don’t add to the… forget it, you’re just too stupid. I’m convinced of that now.
C) Two words: Super Turbo. That game is 10 years old and still enjoys a devoted following. It has had the longest run of any 2D fighter ever made. And besides, I advocated less complexity, not making a copy of ST. But you still can’t shake the idea that this is nothing more than an old skooler’s complaint. Jeez, you are a friggin’ moron.
You forgot the smiley faces. My feeling is hurt.
So. In the end the crux of your argument is really that the games should’ve stayed the same from Super Turbo on. Really. THAT is your final answer?
You don’t provide any substitutions for these needlessly complex systems, so that is all we have to work with. What we’ve got, or what you would prefer. You don’t like what we’ve got. Without that, we’ve still got ST. So. How are you NOT saying “keep it like Super Turbo”, if we don’t have anything superior to add?
N - I just need to be clear on this, forgive me, I’m a moron.
Edit:
since when has complexity been needless?
street fighter has always been about complexity in the first place and in second place innovation. how would u get ST if capcom didnt evolve WW to ST?
Who said they were fancy?
“Not I”, said the Shin-Shoryuken.
Let me quote an earlier post from you:
Wow Aristotle, could it possibly be that those are the exact same things? Is it unreasonable to assume that if change should be removed by your POV that you don’t think things should change? How else would you have that interpreted, because if you want to remove change, well then genius, that means things DON’T change, Now as far as my University Logic class knowledge interprets this, it’s like:
~change &(damn don’t remember the right subscript for computers) ~(~change)
Thats a logical fallacy in case you are devoid of such knowlege Mr. Callicles.
Ok. Last year, 2 teams of 3 American ST players went to Japan to compete in a big tournament. While they were there, ALL of them learned tons of new things/gimmicks/technology they didn’t know was possible before the trip. This is what, 9 years after ST’s release? Sure, the rate of discovery for new tactics is much slower now than it used to be, but new tactics indeed get found. Most people would consider this a good thing. ST is a deep (or whatever positive adjective you prefer that applies to fighting games) enough game so that 9 years into its life, new tactics are being found. According to you however, this is NOT a good thing. Apparently there was SO MUCH unnecessary crap in ST that we can’t stop all the gimmicks from coming out. Battle of the FAQs indeed.
Actually, the numbers bore that out long before ST’s release. Most of the SF2 players around during SF2’s golden age quit after Hyper Fighting. The most popular reason for the fall of fighting games? Because they didn’t put enough changes into them between sequels.
This is what people have been asking you for this entire argument: What exactly constitutes “useless, boring, tedious doo doo”? More importantly, what DOESN’T constitute UBTDD?
That’s the thing though. People don’t want to sit down and learn every little new feature in training mode. They want to pick a character, learn the moves, and play. Why do you think Capcom got rid of the bonus stages by Super Turbo? Because players would rather get straight to the match and pound on their opponent rather than a pile of bricks.
This is a pretty random tangent to go off on, but I think it needs addressing.
So, top players today aren’t beating everybody else on their own skills. They’re winning because of the crutches given to them by today’s games. Nevermind that everybody else benefits from these crutches also, just make sure that today’s top players get no credit for their achievements. The games did all the work for them.
Seriously though, the main reasons I can see for the abundance of famous/known players today are:
-
The internet- SRK and other sites to share strats with other players world wide, combo/match videos to watch and leech off of, japanese match videos to watch certain games played at their highest level today, etc. Back in the SF2 days exchanging knowledge was much more difficult, and forget about ever seeing match vids.
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Increased emphasis on holding/attending tournaments- People play more seriously, get better faster. Hype about winners gets thrown around (via the internet) and top players are born.
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More games being played- if you have one main game that everybody is playing, you’ll probably single out 8-10 guys as the top players. Now multiply that by about 8 different games/communities, and that’s a lot more top players to hear about.
Fast forward to the present, and here’s a totally objective view. Let’s see, at the first US vs Japan, Alex picks O.Sagat in ST. His main in A2? Ryu. His mains in A3? V-Ryu and V-Akuma. His current main in 3S? Ken SA3. His current team in CvS2? C-Guile/Chun/Sagat.
I think the blame for top-tier “abuse” today can also be attributed to the internet/SRK. During ST’s heyday, I think if we were to post up propaganda everywhere saying that O.Sagat is cheap/scrubby and Dhalsim beats most every character and has next to no bad match ups, then have a TV nearby showing match videos of those two characters dominating, you would see a LOT more of those characters than you would have before.
Which begs the question: what is honorable in fighting games? Does winning get you honor? How about throwing? Ok, how about tick throwing? Keep away? Running away? Random uppercuts? Combos? What about custom combos? I use N-Iori/Morrigan/Hibiki. Does that make me more honorable than the venerable Alex Valle since he uses the all top-tier team of C-Guile/Chun/Sagat? But wait! I roll cancel though (damn those glitches!). Does that drop me lower on the honor scale than Alex now? And what about the local scrub who picks S-Kyosuke/King/Haohmaru? That guy must have honor coming out the ears!
EDIT: I forgot to meet my quota of smileys so that nobody gets offended-
=D :lol: :evil:
Number of features isn’t relevant to talk about. More features is neither good or bad.
The exception to that is having to choose a bunch of shit before you start playing, IMO that’s pretty lame.
If you can have a bunch of features and a bunch of characters and still make a good game, great. Most companies can’t do that though. Quality and quantity is a tradeoff. Someone at Capcom spent time in A3 making and and programming that silly red-flash shit, instead of doing something useful like making Sagat’s stand forward hit people. In economics it’s called opportunity cost.
The manpower that goes into games in increasing, but the games aren’t getting better.
There is nothing wrong with having tons of characters. But there IS something wrong with having a bunch of half-assed, poorly balanced characters. There IS something wrong with spending time and energy implementing features that are dubious at best.
More features often means more things that can go wrong. More characters means more characters to test. If you can do that, fine. It’s stupid to have a really generic “more features is good/bad discussion.” You have to be more specific.
One unrelated point, Dasrik saying that Ken or Guile hitting you with a jump-in in SF2 is death is retarded.
Yeah, if Guile hits you with a deep, close jump-in you die…how does he do that? His jump-ins have crap priority, his jump is slow, he doesn’t have a reliable crossup…even if he jumps a fireball usually he is either too far away or has to throw out an early forward so hist fierce/roundhouse doens’t get DP’d.
You could play 50 rounds with Guile against Zan, Chun-Li, Dhalsim, Blanka or Honda and never see a TOD jump-in. That’s just a lazy statement. How the fuck does Honda get hit by a jumping Guile EVER? Hell, you could play 50 matches of Guile vs. Honda and not land a single clean jump-in at all.
That’s pretty different from hitting 2 buttons to activate a move that has invincibility and comboing into an infinite from there.
Also, I would point out that in SF2 EVERYTHING does more damage. If you compare a TOD to a throw in SF2, the TOD does 5x the damage. If you compare a TOD to a throw in A3, the TOD does what…10-15x damage? It’s really not an issue of TOD vs inifnite vs. whatever in what game, it’s a question of damage scale. In A3 a TOD is the equivalent of 500 fireballs.
I didn’t say it was retarded, I said that to counter the point that there was no such thing as combos that took off more than half your life in old school SF. So you kinda wasted your time
Anyone up for a round of Karate Champ? Red Gi was top tier…
3S, Hugo against Gouki
(and against other low stamina guys with the taunt :P)
Can anyone respond to the question of what changes are needless? I mean, that’s not directed at jcasetnl, that’s at everyone. What things, in what games are needless? cause i just don’t know.
As for the world moving on- they just haven’t. ST is still used in tourneys, what, a decade after release? And let’s face it, aside from the supermove and a few character tweaks, it’s more or less the same game as WW anyway. How long did MSH last?? And in case nobody noticed, nobody plays fighters any more. The world moved on to other genres! We are a very small communtiy, and yet we used to be by far the world’s biggest. I wonder what the reasons for that could be? Maybe because the success of a game isn’t decided by hardcore fans- it’s decided by the general public, who have since been alienated.
Yeah, sure. I suppose in a loose sense, you could consider upgrades, gear ratios and suspension settings as “extra controls”. But the tuning is all done at your own pace, and is documented clearly onscreen (“press left/right to increase XYZ”).
And of course, getting lines is an advanced form of play. But they can be picked up through practice or by watching other players/real races on the TV. Even though the optimal one can evolve over time (with new cars or driving styles, or different objectives), they still aren’t mystical things.
So still, there isn’t any UBTDD involved here. Most of it is all simple tradeoff/logic stuff that some people could figure out for themselves. It’s not like a fictitious abstract inclusion just for the sake of making it complex.
Exactly my point. 2 special moves and you were done. You didn’t need to wade through all these manuals and faqs just to find out what a zero counter was, or to doublecheck if a certain super was available in a certain groove, or if it was dqc round the front or back…
I’ve not really played CVS2, but that’s the impression I get, too. It’s like “player X only lost because he didn’t get his midscreen VC right” or whatever…
Yeah- if you treat each ism as a different character, then you’ve got 100 characters to test in A3, and over 200 in some games (that’s 50,000 individual matchups)… That’s a hell of a lot- so it’s no wonder broken shit seeps through.
there may be more potential for broken shit in a more complex game, but theres also more potential for a way to deal with it. simple games are often broken by simple tactics, and when theyre broken theyre broken in HALF. wheenver someone thinks they’ve broken a complex game its always dubious. i think youre just intimidated by the fact that games are getting closer to the point where theres so mcuh stuff that you cant possibly master it all
The bottom line is that it is almost impossible for Capcom to make a fighter that is impossible to break. SF players are creative and smart enough to use every possible glitch or gimmick they can that will give them any advantage. Thats just the way its gonna be.
And for every tactic, there is a counter tactic. Its not like there is a way for you to win all the time and there is no way for your opponent to get around it. If someone just grabs you all the time, you can tech hit. If someone turtles, you can rushdown or grab or chip(you can only block so much rushdown from Mag or storm before you get hit.) If someone rushes down alot, all you need is an anti-air. Some of you make it seem like these games are so unbalanced that if you dont play with the top tier, YOU CANT WIN, therefore capcom games suck. Thats wrong. There is a guy in Chinatown who plays with Dhalsim. And I swear he can beat the majority of Mag or Sentinel players with just Dhalsim/roll/servbot. And Dhalsim is no where near top tier, he’s just so awkward to play with and requires alot of talent. I seen a couple of good megaman players who only play megaman. The top tier is only top tier because WE MADE THEM TOP TIER. Dhalsim takes more skill and timing but he can air dash, fly and rushdown just like the rest of the top tier.
btw all of capcom’s bells and whistles are cool. They just trying to give the fans more options.