Capcom fighters have too many fancy extras!

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
41

EX is a great series (well actually, I only like EX2+. EX3 is kinda fun to dick around with 2 minute combos) but they’re not tourney games. AFAIK, the only somewhat major tourney that has EX is NEC, and they have pretty much every game under the sun.

When did V-Akuma get an infinite? He can tack on a few more hits after his cc (like 3-4 iirc), but he doesn’t have an infinite. In fact, none of the top tier A3 characters have an infinite. Besides, how is an infinite any different than a 100% touch of death combo? I see those a LOT more than 10% of the time.

I don’t know what vids you’ve been watching, but with the exception of the KOF series, super grabs do NOT get landed often. This isn’t ST with its inescapable 720 ticks. Sure, you might see one get landed every now and then, but it’s hardly something to complain about. Besides, outside of Gief’s level 3 FAB in SFEX and ST, I can’t think of ANY 720 that does 80%.

Right. Dying by one dizzy combo into another dizzy combo in the older games, or even just Sagat doing 2 hit short into dp for 55% or more apparently doesn’t count. Not to mention dying by 4 throws/uppercuts, or obscene amounts of chip damage done by specials.

Aside from all that, if I were to play somebody hopelessly better than me in today’s fighting games, I would never be able to even pull off a round. In the SF2 series? There’s always a chance. The high damage setting and huge element of randomness makes anything possible. When a casual ST player like me can beat players obviously much better than me by holding forward and mashing on strong, you tell me which games are easier to kill people in.

42

I officially rename you to BukTruth. Go forth and prosper.

N

43

buktooth owned the thread

as far as i’m concerned capcom dun even give a shiat about EX. arika bought the rights to the series and look what they did with EX3.

i probably played EX more than any of you loving and protecting it here. but although it was fun and wacky, it wasnt much of a street fighter game by my books.

44

Wtf…you’re still talking? Shut the fuck up you retard

45

No. Are you refering to Guile in WW?

This hasn’t really got anything to do with it (although now you mention it, I’ve played Marvel twice, and I beat a bloke who challenged me…)
But yeah, I suppose I agree with you- the high default damage settings of early games does mean anybody can win a round.

46

And THAT’S why arcades are dying. rimshot

That’s a bit of a moot point to say the least. Even if people couldn’t do that stuff at the time, and I think a fair number of people would probably know how, it still remains that the stuff is possible. Even if CvS2/WW/ST/Whatever was being played by blind monkeys with one arm each, the stuff is still indeed possible. Just because you can’t do it doesn’t mean it’ll magically go away. :stuck_out_tongue: Anyhoo. We’re talking about the here and now, and damn right everyone knows how to connect J.Fierce, S.Fierce, Fierce Sonic Boom, F+Fierce. And deny it all you want, but that shit hurts :stuck_out_tongue:

Last I checked there’s no game in which nobody can do anything ridiculous. Besides, that’s half the fun really.

47

Off-topic, but,

There are some people in the US who play EX3 in tournaments. Small scene, but it exists. These people are legit, I’ve played one of their best before…

The game doesn’t suck, tag combos with any team require you to spend HELLA meter to get 100% or anything close to it. There’s solid mixups just like in other modern fighters, and no hideously good or bad characters.

Really, the only major beef I have with this game is the fact that the Ryus (normal and Evil), Kairi, and Guile can all make their DPs/flashkicks completely safe. Garuda’s 100% combo with the MvC1 duo thing is kinda dumb too, but only because it’s so easy…it costs about as much meter as your typical 100% tag combo, it’s just much harder to fuck up.

Anyway, to stay on-topic, I do feel that things like roll and parry are crutches, as are custom combos in all of their forms.

IMO Hyper Fighting and GGXX#R come the closest of any game to the characters winning just on their own merits. Even in GGXX, the game was kinda stupid because most of the characters were good only due to one gimmick or something equally lacking in depth. To wit:

Eddie - Unfortunately even better, ranking-wise, in #R (clear #1 character), but takes more skill. In XX he dealt more damage and took less, but he had 100%-damage unblockables which were all removed from #R. Obvious case of a gimmick being removed.

Slayer - Even more obvious case, as in #R his command grab combo into instant kill was removed. He was made stronger overall otherwise, and is a deeper character as a result.

Dizzy - Was good in XX mostly because of big easy combo damage. In #r that was replaced with all-around better offense and defense. She is pretty much as good now, but more skillful; she also doesn’t have any nigh-unwinnable matchups like in XX due to her added depth.

Bridget - His B&B aircombo and flaming bear super were both heavily toned down in #R. In exchange, we got the FRC roger moves (awesome for specific strings/mixups) and the improved Roger Hug, which is a great zoning move. Like Dizzy, just about as good but deeper.

These are just some examples, but many other characters saw similar changes.

Anyway, dunno where I’m going with this, so I’ll just stop now.

-Josh

48

I thought Slayers stuff was still there, just more difficult to time. Regardless, they upped his damage and defense I think, and actually I’m pretty sure he is the clear #1 in #R, not Eddie. Eddie is considered #1 in GGXX I think…although I thought Slayer had his case as well. I guess its just that Eddie has no bad matchups. He doesn’t really win as easily as Slayer does. Sol still has his dust loop in #R, but they made it a little harder to do (I know you didn’t mention that, just throwing that in as another change).

What do you mean ‘win on a character’s merits?’ That sounds like winning on the character being strong…as opposed to…what, winning based on the engine? I think I know what you’re trying to say…but I don’t think it really makes sense or is true. If you’re trying to say based on skill…I really think thats an asinine statement to say that other games aren’t skill based. But I want to let you clear this up first.

Agreed on the EX3. How many of the people knocking the game actually know how to play it? How many people can really give reasons why it ‘sucks’? I don’t play the game at all…so I don’t have enough of an opinion to say anything either way. If you don’t play a fucking game…just shut the fuck up. It’s not like anyone was talking about EX3 being better than other games or anything…goddamn.

49

Richard, you are fucking stupid.

WW - If Guile lands a jumping hit, you just died.
CE/HF - If Ken lands a jumping fierce, you just died.

Not only that, but literally everyone and their sister could do the Guile/Ken TOD combo. You obviously were not in the scene, and are just talking out of your ass.

50

For people still in the scene and who have kept up with the changes over the years, the complexity might not be such an obstacle. But as a player who was very hardcore until ST, I can speak from a relative “outsider’s” point of view.

IMO, and in a lot of old skool player’s opinions, what Apoc said is dead on. All these lame ass modes don’t add to the game. I put in a quarter and suddenly I have to fill out a survey just to start playing. It’s ridiculous.

Nowadays, 99% of the time, the king of the local arcade is the guy who studied the online FAQ the closest, not the guy with the most gaming skill or refined technique.

They need to get rid of the nonsense so that anyone can step up and understand it, but at the same time, make it extremely difficult to master.

As for the old skool games being “up to chance”, look at the match vids. Look at Daigo. It’s not luck. You’re either being deliberately obtuse or you’re just plain ignorant if you think the skilled players’ matches consisted of trading TOD combos. Moreover, that problem is not one that would be remedied by adding fifteen different fighting modes.

I could teach anyone on this forum how to play chess in ten minutes. Read all the online FAQs you want, but you will never, ever, beat Gary Kasparov.

51

Problem is, you dropped out. Everyone else didn’t.

If games stayed stagnant, then sure, oldtimers could just jump right back in. But that leaves everyone else who never really stopped in the lurch. You expect the bus driver to slow down just because you’re ten minutes late to the stop?

It’s not overly complicated to learn how to play the newer games at a fundamental level, provided you (the collective you) were any good in the first place. How many people were complete no-names until 3s and Marvel got big? Because the ST players don’t want any more features, these people are somehow lessened?

If Justin Wong can go from being a Marvel phenom to a 3S placer (let alone the East Coast’s newfound interest in ST), if Ricky Ortiz can hold it down across the board in pretty much EVERY tourney game, and if Watson and Valle and (insert oldschool player here) can still shake it up in 3s and CvS2, then what the hell are you on about? You can’t expect the world to stop moving just because you weren’t around. The scene is a shark, if it doesn’t keep moving it’ll die.

N

52

As Doctor Evil would say, “Riiiiiiight.”

Re-read my post. You read a bit too much into it.

Like I said, I consider my opinion that of an outsider to the scene at this point. So you may disagree or think I suck or that I have no reason to complain. I’m not exactly sure which it is, nor do I care to know. I’m just telling you how I view the game at this point and what I think of its various evolutions.

Could I learn all the endless modes, rolls, cancels and all that? Sure. But here’s the strange, odd, seemingly incomprehensible reality that you and so many other people just don’t quite grasp:

I don’t WANT to.

There was a time when the learning curve was fun. It was fun figuring out new stuff and the payoff was worth it. Now, it’s so overly complex that it’s just tedious and most importantly, it doesn’t add to the gaming experience. It’s not worth it. It’s not fun.

Why don’t they add another base to baseball? Why don’t they move the pitcher’s mound to a random spot in the in-field each game? Why don’t they put ten men in the outfield? Simple, because the game would no longer be about practice and skill.

With the amount of complexity introduced in the games nowadays, that is basically what you have. For all but a very small few, it’s battle of the FAQs.

I “dropped out and everyone else didn’t?” You obviously weren’t there, then, because if you were you would know that the scene was 100 times bigger in the early 90s. If “everyone else didn’t”, where are they hiding?

53

Let’s go piecemeal.

Then what’s the point? If you want to keep playing Hyper Fighting forever, then DO SO. If you never want supers, or parries, or rolls, or ANYTHING else but your old game, keep playing it. There are a billion HF tourneys around, right? I mean, it was huge in the 90s, all of those people can’t have just up and quit if they were really into it. D’accord?

It’s not THAT hard to play 3s or CvS2 at a medium level. Hell, you can just pick characters you still recognize (Ryu, Ken, Zangief, Guile, Honda, etcetera), play intelligently, and do pretty well. Hell, I’ve won a match here and there with just R4K-Geese, and I never practice at all. You don’t have to study frame data to be “good” at a game. It’s still all about picking characters you enjoy and learning to work it out with them.

Seriously, and as non-rhetorically as I can state it: What did you expect Capcom to do? Make an umpteenth version of World Warrior? Am I the only one who remembers how much people ragged on them for riding sequels? They expanded to SF3 and the versus series(es), and people picked up on it and enjoy it. One simply cannot blame them for giving the people what they want. Hell, 3s almost died from lack of exposure until people who thought the same way you do realized “Yo, this really isn’t that hard. And… by god… It’s FUN!”

Of course I wasn’t, I barely got pubes when WW came out.

Howsomever, we must of course remember that at base, this isn’t about us. It’s about market shares. Capcom’s demographic “grows out” of their product every few years, and if they want to keep the doors open they have to keep it fresh and new. You’re right, most of these teeming masses you speak of prolly did drop out. I’d venture to say they may not have been quite as “into it” as those who currently inhabit SRK, though. Although every 7-11 had a line of quarters on the Champion Edition, ‘quantity doesn’t equal devotion’. Hm. I should add that to my “No Console Evo” argument.

N

54

Not true. Knowledge gives you a headstart on the competition with a few gimmicky wins for a while, but guess what? A few games later, your knowledge/gimmick/technology is known by everybody else and the playing field is even again. Justin doesn’t win Marvel every year because he has some secret knowledge nobody else has, he simply outplays the competition.

Besides, I think you take the knowledge necessary to play SF2 at a high level for granted. SF2 games are VERY match up-specific: if you don’t already know how the Ryu vs Dhalsim match goes and what Ryu’s objective is, you’re probably not going to win. So is “the guy who studied the online FAQ the closest” the king of the local arcade in SF2 also?

I think what you mean is, “don’t add anything new so that retired SF2 players don’t feel lost”. SF2 wasn’t necessarily a very accessible game also. Sure, anybody can hop on and mash away, but you can do that in the newer games also. You either had to learn by experimentation or more likely, have someone else tell you how combos/anti-airs/blocking/special moves/throwing etc worked. Guess what? It’s the same thing now but with a few additional features.

Nobody’s arguing that the older games had no skill. The argument somebody else posted was that it’s too easy to kill somebody in fighting games nowadays, and I pointed that it was just as easy back then… or maybe even more so. Every prominent ST player today (except maybe one or two) admits that the SF2 series has a huge randomness factor. I don’t think it’s even possible to debate that.

It’s equally as obtuse as thinking that today’s fighting games consist of trading infinites and err… 720 grabs.

And your point? Read all the online FAQs you want in any current game. You will never, ever beat Justin in Marvel or KO in 3s, or Kaqn in GGXX, or whatever.

55

Well, I think that’s settled.

N - In a surprise upset, J-Case beats SlimX to take the Theory Fighter championship in Evo2k8!

56

Yeah, I get what you’re saying. But at the time, it was not common, and it did not happen very frequently. Sure, somebody with 10 years of experience can go back and dominate everybody, but that’s missing the point. As somebody said, the games evolve with the players. It’s really not a fair or valid comparison.

All that I’ve been saying is that I contest that it’s now harder to kill somebody than before- it’s just as easy, if only for the reason that there are so many ways to do it nowadays.

I don’t know what gives you such amazingly powerful insight, but yeah, I’ve been playing games since about 1982, and playing arcade beat’emups since about 1985. I had reasonable SF1 skills, and I was doing Blanka rolls before the Nintendo version of WW came out. So what? This isn’t about who’s an expert, or who’s a member of some elitist “scene”. Save your macho insults for the WWE and get back to discussing the games.

In 1991, everybody most definately did NOT die due to a TOD.

Good point. Haviong to press 10 buttons before you even start just gets a bit ridiculous. It’s overcomplex and overdeveloped. Sure, the game has to evolve, but that doesn’t mean making it as detailed as a flight sim.

Likewise, I admit that I now have a hard time remembering the commands for every special and every super for every one of over 50 characters. I guess they don’t expect people to be able to master everyone these days…

I suppose it’s a good point about the demographic “growing out”. But, er, then again, Capcom have just pulled out of the business, so they didn’t exactly do the best job of keeping arcades alive…

Everybody plays racers nowadays, and to use an example of the market-leader: Gran Turismo 3 is just about the most complex and detailed racing game ever created. And yet the controls consist of just two analog sticks (and handbrake and optional gearshift). That’s it! Simplicity doesn’t always make a game shallow or prevent it from evolving.

We’ll have to agree to disagree than. As with chess, it was accessible to all. A masterpiece of multi-leveled gameplay. I’ve seen 95 year olds play SF2 and realy enjoy it. But yet, even without the increased speed, I don’t think I’d see that sort of thing with MVC. They’d just throw down their controller in a flash of colorful explosions and not want to continue.

57

In the “Good old days”, the only reason they used 8 characters was because that was the most they could fit, given the technology. It was a new genre, so people didn’t think to check for re-dizzies, TODs, that sort of thing. By now we know what we’re working with, so it comes through a lot more quickly. That doesn’t mean the games are flawed, again it’s a matter of the demographic moving on. People that have been in a while already know what to look for, what to abuse. The games aren’t going to progress the same way every time. Of course someone with ten years’ hindsight can go back and mow everyone down. Wouldn’t that push developers to come up with MORE complex engines, so that that same person won’t immediately be bored?

Adding characters helps more people to pick someone they like. There’s no reason in the world for you to memorize EVERY character, unless of course you’re one of those people that does that sort of thing. And then you’ve made your own bed.

Ah, this is good stuff. Yes, GT is relatively easy to play. But people who use an automatic transmission and generic pre-fab cars are tantamount to button mashers. I doubt they even bother to drift. However, when you learn the proper way to tune up a car, when you learn the lines on the tracks and the gear shift patterns, doesn’t that equate a higher level of play?

If I said “I don’t want to have to mod my car, I don’t want to shift manually, and I definitely don’t want to ever have to use the handbrake. I should be able to win with just a stock car and an auto trannie, provided my turning is good!” wouldn’t that seem… well, lazy at the very least. Just because it was in RC Pro-Am doesn’t mean racing games have to be that way forever.

N - No disrespect to RC Pro-Am, between that , F-Zero Snes, and Rock n’ Roll Racing I should never want for another racing game. Ever.

58

First of all ALL GAMES have dumb stuff in them.

ST alpha 3s cvs2. U guys can discuss that forever and still don’t agree

I don’t like the rolls in cvs2 . Rolls are stupid period :mad:

dash and run are ok but I don’t like the fact that everyone needs to have acces to them.
It’s like they took everything which made characters special and gave it too everyone.

Cody’s dodge ------>S-groove
A3 Charlie dash ------> cvs2 dash
Guy run -------> cvs2 run

Why does everyone need a superjump?

how do you use your fireball in cvs2 when

-everyone has a superjump

  • people can parry or just defend
  • roll
  • super through

etc

sometimes extra stuff make risk/reward stupid

If you give everyone the same extra features the game will be more balanced but IMO that makes the game boring

So extra features are ok with me as long they are not the same for everyone and they aren’t stupid like rolls :o

Imo game should all be about risk reward

59

I think you’re missing the point. Regardless of whether or not people used these strats/combos 10 years ago, they still exist within the game. I could just as easily use your logic and say nobody in Montana or whatever does V-Akuma infinites or 720 abuse, so therefore the new games must be a-ok with the old SF crowd.

In 2004, everybody most definitely isn’t dying due to infinites and 720 grabs.

Please don’t tell me you’re complaining about newer games having too many characters. Besides, knowing a character’s special moves != mastering the character.

I’m going to have to call bullshit on this one. Getting one 95 year old to play SF2 and have fun is amazing enough. Finding more than one 95 year old playing SF2 is something you’ll only find in a comedy skit. Regardless, I’ll go along with you on this one.

So a pair of 95 year olds (or more!) are playing SF2 and having fun. At the risk of being stereotypical, I’m going to assume they were having a button mashing blast of a time. Who’s to say they can’t do this in a newer game? Why can’t they button mash and have fun in 3S, GGXX or CvS2? Because of all these confounded new features? If anything, I think they would have the most fun with MvC2. Not only are there a few characters they might have a chance of actually recognizing (spidey, captain america, doom), but they get the most results from their button mashing. Why do you think the Soul Calibur series is so popular with casual fighting game fans? Because they can mash away and make visually impressive things happen.

60

You’re being deliberately thick-headed because you want to win an argument, not get to the truth of the matter. After again reading a bunch of stuff into my post that doesn’t exist, you then got up on your high horse in response. I’m not gonna argue with someone who refuses to grasp the concept. That last paragraph of speculations about the old skool was pretty funny to read, though.