C.I.A. HQ: Viper Community Thread (NO C. VIPER TALK)

I WANT YANG. and not that shitty SF4 variation.

Main thing I want is good netcode. BB has it but that game is dead, SF4 has it, but that game sucks, SF3 is acutally solid most times, but outside of a couple of guys on my list, not many people to play with (and they are way better than I).

I really like SF3, but I think the game does need a re-balance though…

Also, my Viper team is pissing me off, tying to implement Zero on the team still has some kinks to be worked out. More on the Viper end though. I’m having alot of trouble setting up mixups using Ryuenjin.

3S needed a game balance before the game even came out but it came out in freaking 1998 so back then you just played game cuz they were fun and picked who you liked. If you wanted to win major tourneys you picked top 3 if you wanted to do your own thing you picked the others etc. The lesser characters are still really strong and fun to play IMO either way. The specific type of skill involved to play that game at high level makes it fun for me regardless of the tiers.

Oh I was kinda scared to talk about C.Viper cuz of the whole thread title thing but I guess I’ll throw that in.

On the Viper stuff…I thought about stuff when I was making my team and I just don’t like having double point character teams. They work but I prefer just one strong point character and 2 assists around them. I like having the other 2 characters providing strong neutral assists but I realized I couldn’t make a team with characters that were strong enough by themselves or with one assist that could do what I wanted to do with X-23. Luckily I have my team worked out where Doom is a solid anchor and I get a Wesker style durp anchor with Vergil that can deal with most situations. Plus still provides decent assist for clearing up mid range with rapid slash.

Are you finding any luck with the Ryuenjin CC tactics or anything like that?

I definitely am not sure I would like a team where Strider assist is the only neutral assist that Viper is being provided. I definitely do see the potential in 2 S tier characters with Strider assist but I don’t feel the Strider assist alone is enough to make the team S tier cheap. The closest it gets is Zero not needing to spend much meter to kill people so Strider can durp it out as anchor. Though of course players will just start trying to snap him in eventually or snipe him out on a bad call.

Well, Ryuenjin is actually really useful for Snap stuff. It inflicts alot of guard stun. Range is mor of an issue, they’ll just push block me.

Sognemu Handeki is the opposite. It’s great for neutral lock down, but less good for snap. I’m liking Handeki more because Vaj already has the snap stuff covered. Belive it or not, Viper and Zero have alot more synergies this time around, mostly due to the fact that their team requirements are less strict. My Zero still is very day 1 though. But 800k meterless is usaully a kill which give me tons of meter for Viper and Strider.

My friend updated his team too and it’s much better, so I’ve been adjusting to that. End result, I lost more than I would have preferred. I need some lab time…

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I’m having the urge to write one of the my posts that like “The Spot” Will have absolutely no baring on anything that actually can, has, or will happen, but I like organizing my thoughts as it helps me understand how games work, what makes characters powerful and why I like certain powerful characters…

Do it. I would read it. You have alot of good knowledge about the game that even if others dont appreciate we in the Viper forums do at least. And your tourney results prove that your knowledge about the game as well as your skills are great so it would be a great read for all of us. =)

I’m already on my second page of typing, this can’t be good at all. >.<

DAT FIST BOMP.

3D Capcom Fighting Game Engine

[details=Spoiler]3D Capcom Fighting Game Engine.

Introduction:

I feel that Marvel Versus Capcom 2 and Ultimate Marvel Versus Capcom 3 are the most fun games that have been created thus far. I feel that with what Capcom has been able to accomplish in the last 8 years means that if they invested the right collaboration of their assets they could finally make a 3D fighting game that’s as good as the current Paragon Marvel. Because of this I think that the introduction of a new version of the versus/Power Stone IP using a lot of understanding that Capcom proved they have with such titles as Marvel versus Capcom 3, Devil May Cry 3, RE 5, Ookami etc. This document will explain what assets I feel could be combined to make a game that reaches the incredible levels of fun that Marvel is or even surpass it. I will say a lot of potentially controversial opinions in here, so if you don’t like them remember they’re my thoughts and primarily spurred by my understanding of fighting games. Characters and their game play will be too complex to go into all of them in a single post.

I do not know if people are good enough at learning fighting games yet to actually play this game to the level it would be possible to take Marvel, however I feel once people do get there the depth would be even greater which is both exciting and terrifying at the same time.

3DCFGE basic overview of engine/universal concepts:

Now that we have that out of the way I’ll address the general concepts that are central to creating this potentially fun game.

I feel it’s time for Capcom to make a real 3D fighting game, I’m not talking about 2.5D like SFIV, or even ‘3D’ like Tekken, I’m talking about having powerful movement tools for the X and Z axis with some Y axis jumping as well. There have been games that attempted to do this before, they have been unsuccessful because they didn’t yet have the correct understanding of how you make a character in three dimensions that’s fun to play and deep.

Basic Movement and Control:

Movement is one of the things that has kept there from being a 3D fighting game that can get that same feeling as a 2D fighter. I feel that using assets from other areas within Capcom it’s possible to make movement for a 3D fighter that’s fun to play a reality. I would almost entirely base universal movement off of Devil May Cry 3. Devil May Cry 3 was the game where I felt as far as character control goes it was akin to playing a fighting game.

Just picking up Dante you could make him do things, but once you delved into detail with him you unlocked an entire extra level of detail. It was akin to learning stand fierce, then learning a hadouken, then learning stand fierce xx hadouken, then learning stand fierce + summon cold star assist xx hadouken, dash up crouching forward, crouching roundhouse, donkey kick, etc. There was depth and base value for it to be built from which is why I feel that’s the basis from which 3D movement and control from within fighting games should be based.

Having the combination of Devil May Cry 3, Marvel 3, Super Smash Brothers Melee and Power Stone 2 for figuring out the fundamental tools that everyone should have access to I would structure movement as so (assuming PS3 Pad/stick for names of buttons and Street Fighter location on stick in parentheses):

Left analog/d-pad/(arcade stick):
Controls the character’s ground movement, up moves away from the camera, down moves closer to it. Left moves stage left, right moves stage right. This means that ground movement is not directly linked to your adversary dramatically unlike traditional fighting games. This movement also applies while in the air. Thanks to the amount of options over all air movement will be very difficult to make as detailed as Marvel’s.

X button to jump (Short):
Okay, extremely controversial design decision number one, a jump button in a fighting game. We all know that a variety of fighting games use a guard button (Soul Calibur, MK, Psychic Force 2012, etc) but for the level of movement and character control necessary to really allow that depth in the game this is a necessary evil. I opposed it when I first played DMC3, but after fully delving through its controls it is the best way to organize things for detailed control and movement. Jump is just what it sounds like, press the button to jump, of course there’s much more control than just that, hold the button for a full jump arc while a tapped button will give you the equivalent of a KoF/Smash bros shorter hop. There should be a dramatic deal of air control as I feel that has a significant impact on making a game more or less fun.

Circle button to guard/block (Forward):
This is actually one of the things that I have the hardest time deciding exactly how it should work and why. Part of what makes Marvel so fun is the ridiculous mix up that you get access to by pairing powerful movement options with powerful attacking options this is something that should be integral to the game to help make it fun. Because of this despite having a guard button the fundamental nature of mix up changes from a Smash brothers base to more of a hybrid.

The guard button is pressed and a direction is held to block in that direction. This means as opposed to a Marvel mix up being between high left, high right, low left, low right, and throw giving you 5 possible things to guard and appropriate reactions to such the system to work in 3D would require a similar ratio of potential attacks to potential defenses and thus I would advocate holding guard and holding up, down, left, or right as the way to block, this is camera based. Holding the direction that the enemy is going to swing from means that the movement options from the game need to be tailored to allow the speed of getting to one of those positions and being able to attack from it needs to be equivalent to the speed it takes to tri-jump with short with Magneto. This doesn’t mean humans need to be able to do so right away, but that’s part of how additional potential for development occurs.

R2 button to lock on, strafe, toggle (Roundhouse):
This is another thing that’s a necessary evil if you give people control over 3D movement you need to give them a way to orient themselves and I feel this is the safest rout to give players control. This will be explained in more detail in an area on players and environments.

Square, Triangle, and Circle are the fundamental attacks (Jab, Strong, and Fierce):
For a very long time I was having issues with this, Marvel 3 showed me that you can have 3 attack buttons and still manage to provide enough variety and control within those to get an in detail game.

Square is Fast Attack, square based attacks are your attacks that have their greatest strong points have to do with putting a collision (hit box) on the field quickly, this is like a jab and short style of button.

Triangle is the Power Attack, triangle based attacks excel at converting whatever you hit into something dead, most comparable to heavy attacks, fierces, etc.

R1 is the Space Attack, this is the normal that has ridiculous collisions for controlling lots of space, either in zoning, or poking, and all kinds of other applications.

Universal Advanced Controls and system:

This is all the stuff that is available to every character for how the system itself works. Akin to advancing guard, dash, and other such mechanics.

System universals:

Gauges:
There are 3 primary gauges. Your health meter, unique meter, and super meter.

Health runs out you die, it’s really quite simple. Drained by getting hit, combos scale damage on a per move basis, similarly to Guilty Gear or Blaze Blue with a certain minimum scaling value.

Unique meter may not even be applicable for all characters, but it’s where the custom values for each character are held whether it be allowing them to charge some kind of shot, collect heat/energy like roboky, etc, that gives a detailed visual about any custom values for the characters.

Super meter is a resource you use in order to have access to more powerful tools just like any game, structuring this off of Marvel as I feel that does it the best. 5 total meters and start at 1 at the beginning of the match. You gain super meter for hitting, being hit, blocking, being blocked, or specific character based special cases akin to Mighty Speech. Combos build meter on a style system similar to how DMC calculates red orbs, using a variety of different attacks during your combo will give you a meter bonus when it finishes. The default amount is built during the combo, once the enemy leaves hit stun is when you receive the bonus meter.

Mix up and block stun:
Autoguard is in effect in this game, meaning once you enter block stun if it doesn’t end you’ll keep blocking until it’s over, this means that mix up requires that you have a hole in block stun even if it’s like a frame trap where there is just a minimal gap. This means that low block stun/hit stun attacks have a greater purpose than just their speed when it comes to mix up.

Hit Stun:
In the event that you don’t block or dodge something, you end up in hit stun just like any other fighting game. Hit stun is a hybrid between Marvel, Smash Brothers, and Soul Cailbur’s air control. When you’re in hit stun on the ground before anything that knocks you off your feet hit stun deteriorates on a per attack basis, so combos started from a 7 fast attack anti air hit confirm will end up scaling harder than the same combo started from a single fast attack anti air hit confirm.

In the air however you have very slight control over your movement while getting hit in order to try and avoid their combos. This isn’t as extreme as Soul Calibur’s version, but is more noticeable than Marvel 2’s.

Additionally when in hit stun if you press the same button as the enemy at the point in the combo where it hits you, you shave 10% off the damage from that attack, giving a Meltyblood-esque way to make sure that while you’re being hit you do more than just sit there.

Movement and block stun:
Another controversial decision. When you are in block stun you have slightly more options than the normal fighter. I intend offense and ranged tools to be strong enough that people are in block stun often and because of this I want although for it to limit characters for it not to completely shut them down. While in block stun although advanced movement is disabled basic movement is only halved in speed. This means that block strings are more about people being able to get out of the way than the character actually pushing them out. This way attacking can have the more aggressive, visceral quality that DMC brings with the feeling of being unhindered.

Active tools:

Dashing:
Dash by pressing Lock On and Jump. Hold a direction while pressing it to dash in that direction. Can alternatively just press Jump while holding Lock On instead of hitting the buttons at the same time. Easy to access for everyone but mastering it gives tons of fluid movement options. You can do anything while dashing pretty much and it inherits some degree of momentum, large amounts for things like jumps. Dash can be guard canceled into another dash for wave dashing.

Grapple:
In a Smash Brothers style throws start from a grapple, this is done by inputting Power Attack and Guard at the same time. Characters have varying options after the grapple. Cannot grapple characters out of block stun or hit stun.

Universal Guard: Costs 1 gauge
Press Lock On and Guard at the same time. This guards in every direction for the cost of 1 meter. It’s used to spend gauge to not get mixed up.

Burst: Costs 4 gauges and all of unique meter
While in hit stun press Lock on and Guard at the same time. This activates your alpha counter while you’re in hit stun. This is only to save your life as it gets rid of pretty much all of your assets in the process and can’t be combod after, but does save you from a combo.

Internal Series:
Characters can all chain with a button type on hit and block. Fast Attack to Fast Attack, Power Attack to Power Attack, and Space Attack to Space Attack.

External Series:
Characters can chain from one button type to another on hit and on block.

Special Cancels:
Input a special during a normal to cancel the remaining frames of the normal into the start up of the special.

Super Cancels:
Input a super during either a normal or a special to cancel the remaining frames of the normal or special into the start up of the super.

Launcher:
Lock On, Away, and Power Attack will let you launch with the potential for follow up combos, this attack is always jump cancellable.

Jump Cancels:
Everyone can jump cancel their launcher, but certain other attacks may be jump cancellable for each character.

Ground Tech:
Hold a Direction as you recover from hit stun and are knocked down on the ground to roll that way, you are invincible during the roll.

Grapple Tech:
Press Guard and Power Attack within 3 frames before, after, or during a grapple attempt to break it leaving the two characters at neutral.

Air Tech:
When ending air hit stun hold a Direction and/or J**ump **to tech either down or up in that direction. You are invincible during the flipping tech.

Super Jump:
Press Lock On and Jump at the same time. Jumps super high.

Guarding:

Guard actually takes into account 3 possible directions each, IE holding Up covers Up, Upleft, and Upright. If the enemy is attacking from any of these directions you will be put into block stun instead of hit stun, this is available in the air and on the ground. You take chip damage from applicable attacks and you gain meter for blocking, similar to Marvel your options in block stun are exceptionally limited.

It is possible to guard in the air and while dashing.

Precise Guard:
If you input the exact correct direction chip damage is cut in half, IE if the enemy attacked from Upright and you held Up there would be no precise guard but you’d block. If you held Upright instead you would have much less chip as a result.

Additionally, pressing guard on the exact correct frame will remove your movement limitations while you are in block stun, so with proper uses of precise guard it lets you get out of strings. Since the window is much smaller than a 3S parry and you aren’t allowed to do any other actions during it.

Advancing guard:
Just like in Marvel, when you’re in block stun you have a tool to get people farther away from you. While in block stun pressing Guard and J**ump **you get a new set block stun value and push the enemy farther away from you. No variation from the Marvel version.

Alpha Counter: Costs 1 gauge
When in block stun press Lock On and Guard. a low damage, high knock back, high hit stun attack that leaves the enemy immune to damage until they recover. This is not intended to ever net a combo, the universal mechanic is intended to shift momentum quickly back in the defender’s favor at the cost of gauge.

Character Specific cross applicable concepts included in the game:

These are the things that although not accessible to all are accessible to more than one character and need to be noted.

Double (Triple) Jump:
Press Jump while in the air, this is not complex.

Air Dash:
Press Lock On and Jump while in the air, may behave differently than a regular dash depending on the character, may or may not allow blocking while air dashing, may or may not count as a special class cancel, and may or may not count as a super class cancel. Just like regular dash this can alternatively be done by holding lock on and pressing jump.

Flight Mode:
Press Lock On, Space, and Jump at the same time. Puts the character in a fly state, depending on character they may or may not block, may or may not use it as a special class cancel, and may or may not use it as a super class cancel. Like dash can be done by holding Lock On and Space then pressing Jump.
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To be continued in the next post.

The next post of

3D Capcom Fighting Game Engine part 2

Spoiler

The Stage and how players interact with it:

This is where the much more Power Stone influenced aspects of the game come into play and a lot of traditional fighting game standards are obliterated. This is for making sure that the dynamic play environment gives lots of stage based options but requires keeping everything in mind when designing character’s normals, specials, etc. Because of this stage selection is important in tournaments, I would advocate random stage selection as mandatory for the first match and loser gets to choose after that.

Aspects of a stage:

Stages are not flat:
This varies from traditional fighting games. Like Power Stone or Smash Brothers, the stages have multiple platforms or areas you can get to and keep the arena from feeling like it’s just scenery. This effects how/when people should use attacks in order to set things in their advantage.

**Stages have transitions: **
Along with the stage not being physically flat, like Power Stone the stage constantly transitions, thus giving opportunity to use the developments to secure advantages in your zoning, rush down, etc. Having a set, easily learnable cycle for each stage gives you access to tactics and maneuvers that aren’t applicable in traditional fighters, thus giving you more control. These should not be terribly complex, likely just to the Power Stone 2 levels if not slightly more or less detailed depending on what people are actually able to do.

Characters can interact with the stage:
For those of you who are relatively oldschool you likely remember being awestruck when Claw (Vega/Balrog) would be able to leap onto the chain fence in his background and use it to augment his attack. The concept is that every stage should have pieces of it that can be used in interactions, not just for specific attacks, but also for specific movement. From simple things like wall jumps to more complex such as attacks with requirements such as Dante’s spinning around a pole in DMC 3, context sensitive abilities which leads us to one of the potentially most controversial points.

Items:
Yes, I’m talking about the ability to pick something up and use it in combat. No I don’t mean the same way as in Smash Brothers. Random items are not good for anything competitive as random does not supplement that even if it can be hype. FPS games and RTS games have the best example of how to incorporate items in the most balanced way, very specific spawn points for items that are an additional objective in the battle. Since stages transition over time having specific items available in specific places at specific times means you don’t worry about something appearing and people scrambling to get it. However you do have access to developing strategies to control space as you enter that area either by setting up mix up, zoning, etc, in order to control the item and use it to your advantage. Items in general should only be a supplement and characters should be able to fully function without them. Since characters have different movement and space control options by default this will benefit certain characters more than others and that’s why it’s integral to understand that when balancing and creating characters.

Gameplay:

There are 2-4 players in either teams or free for all formats, just like Smash Brothers or Power Stone. One versus one is perfectly fine, but team elements in games make them incredibly fun and can still be competitive (see some FPS, RTS, etc)

Basic Attack Archetypes and Execution:

Akin to Devil May Cry, attacks can string into each other for combos, which means just like Marvel 2 you don’t necessarily have access to 100% of your attacks from neutral, but have ways to access them when your attacks are hitting/being blocked.

A random character in Marvel 3 In this case Felicia as a reference has 25 moves (all states of normals, specials, and hypers) about 5 of which have 3 variations to their properties depending on the button pressed leaving us around 45 total attacks per character. I think this is an excellent base to work from

Normals:

Internal Strings:

These follow the archetypes of:
**Fast **(Move FA1), **Fast **(Move FA2), **Fast **(Move FA3), Fast (Move fA4)
**Fast **(Move FA1), wait, **Fast **(Move FB2), Fast (Move FB3), Fast (Move FB4)
**Fast **(Move FA1), wait, **Fast **(Move FB2), wait, Fast (Move FC3), Fast (Move FC4)

Internal strings have the same archetypes on the ground and in the air, but different moves fill those spots, landing will set you in the same spot on your ground string, IE:
Air Fast (Move aFA1), Air Fast (Move a FA2), land, Fast (Move FA3), wait, Fast (Move FB4)
Air Fast (Move aFA1), wait, Air Fast (Move aFB2), land, Fast (Move FB3), Fast (Move FB4)

Internal Strings range from 3 to 8 different moves depending on character and string, because of this the basic Internal String construction has a lot of possible variations out of each button.

External Strings:
Just like Internal Strings, external strings follow various archetypes:
Fast (Move FA1), Power (Move PA1), Space (Move SA1), Space (Move SA1)
Fast (Move FA1), wait, Fast (Move FB2), Power (Move PA2), Power (Move PA3), Space (Move SA3)
Fast (Move FA1), Fast (Move FA2), wait, Power (Move PB2), Power (Move PB3) wait, Space (Move SC3)

Wait Cancels:
Waiting is obnoxious and people don’t want to wait, so in order to access combos more quickly tapping and releasing Lock On after the first active frame instantly shifts the attack the the next section of the string without wasting time IE:
Fast (Move FA1), Lock On, **Fast **(Move FB2)
Fast (Move FA1), Fast (Move FA2), Lock On, Lock On, Power (Move PC3)

Time Slide Cancels:
Akin to the issue of wanting a FC3 move without wanting to wait, gap cancels are for when you want an FA5 move without wanting to wait. You execute this by tapping and releasing Lock On before the active frames of the attack, most easily done by slide/plinking, IE:
Fast (Move FA1 does not come out) ~ Lock On ~ Fast (Move FA3)
Fast (Move FA1 does not come out) ~ Lock On ~ Lock On ~ Fast (Move FA4)
Fast (Move FA1), Fast (Move FA2 does not come out) ~ Lock On ~ Lock On ~ Fast (Move FA5)

Specials:

Specials are all simple to execute, just like DMC 3 style, specials thusly have only a few basic archetypes:

Special movements all cycle around this concept: Hold Lock On, hold/press Forward or Back, and press an Attack. So the 6 basic Specials are:
Lock On + Forward + Fast
Lock On + Back + Fast
Lock On + Forward + Power
Lock On + Back + Power
Lock On + Forward + Space
Lock On + Back + Space
Based on this sub set of motions it’s possible if necessary to add modifiers such as Hold and Release or Mash.

Each character would have at least 2 air specials, preferably more, the game should allow people to have lots of control regardless of position.

Supers:

Super inputs should be the logical next step from special inputs thus each character is limited to only 2 supers:
**Lock On + Forward + Fast + Power + Space **
**Lock On + Back + Fast + Power + Space **

This looks like a lot but it’s just as easy as holding up and X-factoring or playing Zero.

Again to be continued in the next post…

@DevilJin

What’s with the sudden interest in the Viper boards? You seem to be very active on here as of the last few days.

I really liked how you want to incorporate land surface and items like an rts or a fps. My concern is how big is this is going to fit on the screen, is it something like a DBZ game where there are buildings you destroy and the area is semi-big to big? Or is to going to be a semi-big MW3 map compared to a Battlefield 3 map.

For map interacting, when I play tabletop games, some of the pieces have weird abilities. Some of them were able to swim in water and some can go through jungle faster, is that what you are referring to when you talked about the pole in DMC?

Ve how are you liking XIII-2?

Long story short…I’ve been wanting to play Viper since the day Vanilla came out but never got into her because I wasn’t a big fan of the rapid seismo stuff and I wanted to see a lot of tech come out of her first.

To delve into it after that… the last tournament I played in with X-23 I just got tired of her getting smacked around by bigger hit boxes all day (and she’s really just guard break the character outside of her execution) so I dropped her as a main and finally decided to take on Viper. X-23 fit my play style the most but Viper definitely fits my play style also while being able to do more than just sit and wait against characters that mainly fight from a range. I needed a character that fit my play style of heavy mix up and feint type offense but could be a threat from a range also against the characters that you shouldn’t just run forward against. Which led me back to Viper like I originally wanted.

Seeing how well she works with Doom and how I still feel I do things with Doom that other Doom players still aren’t doing as effectively (just like certain small things here and there that I know I can work with), I figured I can just take it from there. Vergil works as typical anchor that if you let fall to the ground with at least 2 meters will rape your team etc.

Haven’t really got to play it much yet, so I’m hesitant to give an opinion.

I actually spent most of my free time to day working on my VZS tech.

I spent my time working on Zero’s LL… any tech for us to steal?

Not really, the LL pissed me off so I just worked on confirms and mixups. Zero’s Neutral game is retarded. Like, Viper and Zero both have absurdly strong neutrals, but Viper’s is smart and calculated… Zero’s is retarded.

I’m still debating assist choices. Handeki is better for combo’s and pressure (mostly when Sogenmu’d), but Ryuenjin is better for Snaps. You can do a siesmo relaunch with Ryuenjin but it’s hard as fuck.

Even without the LL, I’ve got a meter neutral combo with Zero and Viper that does 1 million via DHC, but that won’t actually be needed to kill most times.

I played it for about seven hours now and i really like it, it’s way better than XIII in about every aspect. The soundtrack is awesome and collecting and leveling up monsters is fun.

A little more complex than that, we’ll play some Power Stone 2 soon and I’ll show you how a very rudimentary version of it works! ^.^

As for size, I’m thinking the ideal for a fight would likely be approximately half of an average Smash Brothers Melee map but squared since it has the extra dimension.

Lol my Viper neutral game isnt methodical at all. Pressure with seismo and shit out EX Seismos when I have meter. Viper and Zero are just about on the same level when it comes to BS.

Also when refering to Zeros LL you mean the one he does in sougenmu and just TKs them over and over in the corner right?