It gives you very very little time to react to some negative moves though and you see them becoming effectively “safe” because of that
Though I totally do agree that they are not safe and I do understand what that term means
From watching the smash video and reading the comments. It does suck that u can’t react to things and appropriately whiff punish based on sight.
I was wondering is it because the animations of attacks are so quick? What would happen if they added frames to everyone’s moves?
So instead of 3 frame jabs the quickest one would be 15 in comparison? I know it would change the game a bunch but would it allow for reactionary play again?
You just made the slowest 2D fighter ever.
There were plenty of unsafe moves which were hard to punish in SF4 and in other fighting games. The lag isn’t entirely the reason why you aren’t punishing certain things on block. There are some things that can be attributed to the lag and some that can’t; putting it all on the lag isn’t helpful.
Not really. Dash stuff is prevelant in other games cvs2 and 3s. Dash up shorts and dash up throws. I think people will be able to punish it a little more often, but I don’t think it’ll weaken to the point where people won’t do it.
Balancing data around input delay is not the same as reducing the delay. The reasoning is that if you have a 15 total frame move, and 8 frames of input delay, I see the action of that move for 15 frames, I can then execute my reaction once I have visually reacted to it, the rest is up to the game’s delay. If however, you were to add extra frames (placed wherever) to that move, this gives me visually 23 frames to react, which means that I can visually react to things much easier because it is on screen for a longer period of time. By adding more frames, you make it near impossible for someone not to react in some way. Whereas, reducing the input delay gives you as the player the same amount of time to react, while also giving your character quicker reactions in a sense.
There’s also the whole issue of how you could never make a powerful looking punch if you keep slowing the animation down. A good example is Alex’s overhead, which looks so slow, that despite his goliath size, doubt it would hurt at all if someone were to do it to me. Considering the damage it does in-game – well…
Personally, this issue for me is on the top of the list of things that needs to be addressed. It is spoken about by literally everyone, and commentators will skim around it, but they often do eventually just have to say “He didn’t react to that because 8 frames.” It’s become a Meme at this point.
I don’t like the direction SFV’s meta is going in. It feels very artificial, and while it is becoming this way through the processes of many things, the input delay is a huge factor for it. SFV’s meta consists of a lot of unsafe dashes, a lot of unsafe jumps, and a lot of turn forcing or unsafe move usage. Even at the highest level of play, you can see how much of a struggle it is to deal with even the most basic of things in this game. Top players are getting blown up by stuff they would have dealt with just on muscle memory alone in past titles. You can deny it if you like, but the results are plain as day and easy to see.
I am a 3S player, I am used to these dash times, and these jump times. Dashes are viable, jumps are viable, you will get dashed in on, you will get jumped on, but it has never been so skewed in it’s risk-reward. In 3S, if you jumped in at someone, you risked losing 35-45% of your health by way of correct AA reactions (Dash under -> trip guard, AA DP into super, parry -> trip guard punish, character specific stuff~), for the reward of doing 35-45% of your opponent’s health or pressure if they block. It was a very balanced risk-reward, it was near even for both sides. (An aside, the hitboxes were also more dynamic here. AAs were very strong hitboxes, while jump-in hitboxes were also very strong. Meaning you needed a stronger option to beat a strong option. It was not in SFV’s vein of every jump attack sucks, and a lot of AA’s kind of suck too.)
Dashes are very similar speeds, but yet, in 3S, I could jab dashes by most characters on reaction, often MK as well. With Ryu, I could DP a dash-in attempt just by buffering it in neutral (Can’t do this in SFV at all). Dashing can work, but it was something you had to do sparingly and correctly, be it through fakes, screwing with your opponent’s head, or dashing in behind their recovery on whiff. The risk to dashing in and getting caught could mean (again) 35% of your life, if they buffered a normal into a super or special, with the reward only being that you closed the gap. Now in SFV, you could say the risk is the same, but because the delay is present, it is very hard to react to a dash. On top of that, normals in this game have infinitely less active frames than those in 3S and even those in SFIV. So throwing out normals to check dash attempts carries more risk and less reward, as you’re opening yourself up to get counter-hit.
From there, it’s only a risk of a big counter-hit because most characters in this game are fighting for the same space. You’re almost never at a distance where only your character can hit. Generally speaking, if you’re in sweep range, they’re also in range. There are exceptions to this, but it is mostly true, something which was discussed literally pre-beta. This close distance also means that most jump attempts will be a cross-up, which is one of the CORRECT times to jump, as cross-ups are one of the trickiest jumps to AA effectively. Only those with the nonsense AA jabs can deal with this easily, the rest of the cast has to respond with the olden time methods of dealing with it: dash under (hard with input delay), jump back jab, reverse DP.
I would love to see SFV play as a responsive game, who wouldn’t want that? It just feels better when your reaction times sync up with your character’s reaction times. It’s something every fighting game player of old is used to just being a thing. That’s why online was never seen as competitive, that’s why people wanted delay netcode gone – literally since day 1, we’ve wanted as little frames lost as possible. It’s just some people never knew how much they wanted them until they were gone. So now it’s a topic of debate, as if there was a ever a debate to begin with. No one is fighting for Capcom to keep it as 8 frames (and if you are, please explain with actual reasonings as to why you think that’s better for the game in the long run), so in that sense, I have SOME minute crumb of faith that Capcom will fix this in some way. I doubt it’ll be to the degree I would want, but I HAVE to think they are going to. They don’t want this to haunt them for the rest of the game’s existence, but more importantly, I’d like to hope to that they just want to see these pro players play against each other with all of their unique abilities like god-like reaction times in complete capability.
I hope…
Their idiotic excuse of not wanting interfere with the CPT, is what’s delaying any sort of a patch. This should be dealt with immediately, and I don’t feel like the uproar within the community has been loud enough.
Forward dashing will definitely still be strong, having anything faster than 18 frames can be difficult on its own. However, since they will be easier to punish in general, people will have to actually earn a dash by having a solid neutral game rather than going ham with forward dashes by default.
Anyone remember trying to play Killzone 2 online? Yeah. SFV, with a somewhat laggy stick feels kinda like it, even when i have one of the fastest monitors out there (S2330MX).
Reactions and reads go hand in hand in a 2D fighter like SF where trying to punish a normal attack during its recovery animations can be a vital part of your gameplan for the ground. I think MANY online warriors don’t even focus on things like this, they most likely try to use special moves at the time they think is right to try and hit people out of whatever their opponents are doing, just to get them to stop pressing buttons so they can opt for a crazy rushdown that even good players can’t stop at times because…its a crazy rushdown, what the hell can you do against a crazy rushdown anyways? These players just don’t know how input lag has such a impact in a 2d fighter like SF because they don’t know certain aspects that come into play when trying to play SF at a high level.
Too true, I don’t know why people are still going on about this. I mean if it wasn’t in the game from day one i could understand (i.e brought in with a patch) but it was.
So to save reading through 100 posts, has the input lag been reduced? Is there any news that it will be reduced in the future?
Nope, no news as of yet, sadly.
Everyone just keep being vocal about it. Every stream, every fight, complain and do the 8-frames meme dance until you die of old age or it gets fixed. I don’t want this to stop haunting Capcom until it’s dealt with or at least given a definitive answer. (Seriously, just tell us for god’s sake, so I can decide to leave or stay!)
nope hasn’t been changed. There’s a decent chance it’ll be reduced come Jan-Feb 2017.
Question for people who were following SfV before release. Did the 2015 betas of the game have the input lag as well, or did it get added to the game in its last months?
The first time I ever played the game I was disappointed. It felt “stiff” and “unresponsive”. I couldn’t put my finger on it because I never fathomed that a high profile fighting game especially SF could have 8f of input delay built in.
Then again I never fathomed racism would return to the West or that we would be arguing over bathrooms or that people would defend input lag so, no I didn’t see this steep decline in our culture and society coming.
It’s funny when i see the game getting played it seems so fast and fun only when your at the weel you find out that this game is really garbage if you depend on your reactions.
No wonder jumpins are so good in this game.
The elephant in the room about input lag is that fixing it also requires a MASSIVE overhaul of startup frames on a bazillion moves.
[list]
[] Overheads must be brought back to the reasonable range of 13-16f, otherwise people block them or stuff them all day (did I mention they are also unsafe on block?)
[]There would not be that much of a need for jabs as reliable AAs anymore, now that it is feasible to use slower buttons. Keeping jabs as they are after input lag fixing would make jumping over an opponent a foolish attempt.
[*]Many moves that have a slow startup risk becoming unplayable or “once in a tournament” kind of playable. Nash’s Moonsault Slash, Mika’s charged HK, Ken’s V-Skill, Alex’s Stun Gun Headbutt, etc. Input lag fixing is a hidden nerf in disguise for these moves and characters and therefore their properties would need to be changed accordingly.
[/list]
In short, the fix of input lag would imply some balance adjustments that are worthy of a big version overhaul. I’m totally for it, but let’s not fool ourselves and pretend that is something Capcom is looking forward to fixing ASAP. They are going to exploit all excuses and PR tactics available to try to convince the community of it not being necessary or the game being fine as it is. Ayano’s epic “it was intended” fail and the recruitment of Alex Valle’s into the CDF are testament of it.
I could see them reducing the startup of overheads appropriately, 3-4 frames most likely.
but…
That’s pretty much the point of fixing it, it’s so you can’t just throw out high reward moves with less risk than they should have. You can still use the examples you mentioned, but it would require you to earn it by forcing attention on your strong neutral thus impeding on your opponent’s reactionary window. Same goes with dashing, these are things that should be earned after getting in your opponent’s head, not used to get an advantage in the first place.
Even though I hate the game, I ended up playing some USF4 because all the SF5 machines were being used. After it being so long since I last played, I was not only surprised by how responsive the game felt in comparison, but also how fast it was. It felt like going from “slow” fighter 4, to SF2 Turbo on Zangief’s stage fast. Not only that, but I was hit confirming off of tighter links way, way more, and I have a really hard time doing that in SF5.
That speaks volumes that I was kind of enjoying a game I loathe more than a game I feel should be more likable. They need to fix it.
So is it really true that “Legacy Mode” removes the extra lag or is this just a rumour?
I recently got hold of a modded arcade stick which I have used to play SF5 with. Because it only supports PS3, I have played the game throughout my time with legacy mode enabled.
However, I even felt then, through legacy mode, that the game ran much slower, less responsive than usual for other fighting games.
Then, during the weekend, I visited some friends to test my nearly learnt stick skills against them at SF5. They had the official SF5 madcatz sticks so there was no need to use the legacy mode.
However, from the very first moment I touched the game, I noticed how extremely laggy the inputs became! Not sure how great my friend’s TV was, but we did put it in Game Mode. Still, I was shocked to discover how I kept dropping all combos I attempted, as well as not being able to react to cross ups. I felt I had to “gamble” in all situations. I was so horrified and shocked I didn’t bother playing more than 45 minutes max…
Is the game really that much more responsive in legacy mode or was my friend’s Samsung 1080p (£1200 worth) Game Mode just not up to the chase?
I have followed this debate for a long time but this was my FIRST true experience of the possible additional input lag. Was forced to make a post!
Legacy controllers are 1 frame faster than ps4 controllers…nothing you can really notice