…the problems Capcom claims have nothing to do with character animation even. That is not difficult to rollback, it’s not like SF is using ragdolls, there’s still keyframes that aren’t normally in betweened until super flashes or something that are consistently the same. What is a bitch is figuring out what something like a colliding Hadouken and Tiger Shot looked like on frame 5 because of the particle effects used, as the visual physics of those are generated on the fly, and as you may be able to tell from the handful of slowdowns in the game surrounding flame effects, not especially cheaply.
if thats really actually an issue they should account for it and use simpler animations that are toned down for online play. theyre a bunch of retards though so
not even like simpler animations but dont use a bunch of stupid particle effects and all
It’s still sprites and maybe they can disable the shadow effects for online play.
The way to get Capcom to get better netcode? Have a game with good netcode steal away its online players. Right now Capcom has a monopoly in terms of mainstream online fighters, but with MK9 coming out soon, I don’t know how much longer Capcom has at the top.
You know we’re fucked when we have to bank on Mortal Kombat.
I agree entirely, though as I said there’s a chance that could backfire. I just think the argument is framed in the wrong way. It’s not that Capcom is going out of their way to use a terrible netcode because they hate us. It’s just that they feel the alternative is not worth their time for previously stated reasons.
Capcom’s already said themselves that they could implement good netcode in these newer games if they had optimized the game for that netcode from the start, and other genres of 3D games, oftentimes with many more actors and effects to manage, often utilize some form of rollback, or at least mixed netcode. So the purely technical argument is a bit suspect. It’s a matter of money and noise. The people on Unity and other websites who insist that 4 frames of input lag is lagless play are much more vocal, and unless you can shout them down or educate them properly, capcom won’t change.
Other obvious solution is a technical revolution in how video game companies implement netcode.
everyone on capcom unity is a dumb little nerd and they probably had their lunch money stolen and they were shoved in lockers
Except there’d be absolutely no proof that them losing players would correlate to MK9 just having better netcode. If anything, they’d blame the lack of single player options compared to that of MK9 which would probably screw us further.
Guys, it’s not as simple as “We just go to a new game with better netcode and Capcom will finally listen”. The only way that happens is if it’s ABSOLUTELY OBVIOUS the only reason the switch is because of the netcode and nothing else. If there’s ANY other reason for a switch, Capcom will focus on that rather than the netcode.
Again, IMO, the only way to really get Capcom to look at the issue is, when they make a good-great FG with shit netcode, don’t buy it. That’s it. Get at their wallets that way (because just switching, meh, they already got our money, they don’t care too much) and on top of that, they have no other excuse for it other than netcode.
@ihatemodok: so the first step is an attempt to educate people saying mvc3-like netcode is good or acceptable, which may be a futile effort. But if successful, would create a possibility to send our argument to capcom’s door as a legitimate threat to their bottom line.
I may work on a video detailing how bad the lag is later. And I don’t know what they’ll say about rollback based code, but Halo 3 and reach had similar(iirc), and until extreme circumstances such as lag switching, there isn’t much complaint, and is further proof of how far FGs are behind in the online spectrum.
Signed,
Everybody
Because a few random guys on SRK boycotting the game is going to ruin capcom 
and an apparent lack of interest in fighting games will encourage them to make more fighting games, but with better netcode.
Again, that won’t work without noise or education.
It very well might be futile, but it’s the only avenue that I can see really working… every other attempt, while they might be good ideas on their own, can be stopped by a very vocal section of the fanbase that not only tolerates, but in some cases greatly approves and encourages the games’ netcode.
Think of it from their perspective: If you can’t feel or see 4 frames of input lag for some reason, whether you just aren’t very good or stick to the most lenient combos, why would you want rollback code? Which tends to be much more noticeable when it kicks in. As long as that qualifying statement holds true, any campaign to get Capcom to improve their netcode will be subverted on day 1. At least IMO.
Well I thought the noise and education are obvious to begin with. Who would disagree with that?
There is a big difference between FPS netcode and fighting game netcode that makes it much less resource intensive.
Basically, it’s less interaction driven. If you’ve played Call of Duty, you’ve seen how the killcam heavily disagrees with what you saw a ton of the time. That’s because synchronization is massively relaxed in a multiple player shooting game. Rarely will two machines have the exact same sequence of events, but as long as it’s close enough for you to walk into a room, shoot someone, and have them die it generally works out and the game can do a lot of things to make it look less screwed up as well as add a bit of compromise and fairness to deciding on the “canon” version of events. This works generally, because what other players do has minimal effect on your available options until you drop dead.
But in a fighting game we can’t (generically) keep hitting each other at the same time, someone is going to end up in hit or block stun. Positioning is very important because it effects your entire move selection rather than just shifting your aim. So the amount of synchronization has to be very high, which is very challenging.
Right. But at the same time, the only time rollback really truly kicks in hardcore (to make it noticeable) is when:
- Someone is lagswitching
- You or your opponent are downloading a torrent
- You are an American playing someone from Hong Kong or Taiwan.
And these are the same scenarios that would set up the conditions to prove how insanely abhorrent the input lag is in MVC3/SSF4. But of course, Scrub X wouldn’t normally see these conditions too often (at least the latter one), since most wouldn’t be stupid enough to accept challenges from anyone with less than 4 bars (3 at the most). And under GGPO netcode, I would suspect 3-bar connections on SSF4 would be acceptable as well. And as for the former two, those players would be avoided to begin with on SSF4 as-is, as they would in GGPO based netcode. So why differentiate?
Even the “it’s so noticeable!” argument doesn’t tread water. You can notice all 3 scenarios above easily in match in the current situation. (Game slowdown, frame hangs, and let’s not forget the dreaded stuck input syndrome in SSF4) Just because one rolls back states and the other slows down to a crawl doesn’t mean the latter is tolerable while the former isn’t. If you’re going to say you prefer your game to slow down to 20fps or less over some rollback in the worst case scenarios, you’re better off playing NES titles IMO. And either way, you would be avoiding that player from then on anyway.
So I think I will document the input lag on SSF4 and MVC3 online. I’ll need players for every kind of connection to help me out. Although I guess I could do it on my own in MVC3, but I think doing it online with MVC3 would help my case, seeing how it sporadically jumps from one state of lag to another, making it even harder to confirm combos.
And honestly, whether I did it with training mode under lag conditions, I think I should do tests online anyway, to see how accurate Capcom’s lag sim really is.
And as an aside, I would also argue this to people on Capcom Unity: You’re casual players, and just want to have fun. Good. I respect that. And Capcom’s netcode suits your needs fine. If you’re just having fun, that’s fine. But just because the netcode is good for you, doesn’t mean it’s good for everyone. Don’t stand in the way of something that would be a betterment of the community, not only for the hardcore gamers, but in turn, you as well. If this netcode were to improve, it would benefit you, as it would allow you to have as close to offline play as technologically possible.
What would be a betterment for the community would be if there was some sort of agreement made to work to better the netcode for all. Not the hardcore screaming, “The netcode sucks, and you casuals should shut up,” or the casuals screaming, “The netcode is fine, you hardcores should shut up, you’re ruining my fun.”
You bring up a good point, but not at all what I was pointing out.
I mean first off, you seem to know your stuff, so am I right that FPS netcode is rollback-based? I want to make sure my logic wasn’t flawed from the start.
If I am right, then once again, I’m making my point known that despite both being rollback based, FGs get most of the heat, without much complain over FPSes, unless you get into those extreme circumstances I already mentioned. In which case, you just go to dashboard, avoid/report player, never see him again most likely.
The same is possible in FGs. If you come across bad rollback against a player, just set him to avoid. Or (since it’s 1-on-1), do something to make him noticeable, like muting his mic, so you know not to play him anymore just in case he shows up again. But then, with frame/input lag, most people do this anyway. Which makes their conceived point AGAINST rollback netcode a contrived effort, because there’s no difference, especially with GGPO, because in that case, you’re getting it only in extreme circumstances, and those circumstances happen less often.
Now all of this could change on a largescale implimentation. I don’t know. But I could stand to reason that, quite possibly, all the matches being played online at any given point would closely mirror that of GGPO’s total amount of online users at any given time (Which is feasible, seeing GGPO’s KOF rooms). However, I could still be wrong, and without the numbers of matches going on simultaneously in front of me on SSF4/MVC3 during peak periods, this is merely speculation.
Now can I refute the fact that Netcode for fighters are more resource intensive? Probably not. Fighters require more precise positioning and inputs that shooters don’t. However, Namco has proven GGPO to be usable in 3D environments. So it’s not like it’s on a hardware-surpassing level of resource-intensive.
Moreover, I might also go out on a limb and suggest that FPS netcode is just as resource intensive. Coupling that with the fact that multiplayer in FPS games are usually on the level of 6+ players per game, and I would stand to reason that the reason FPS netcode is more lenient on positioning is the fact that they need some way to make it less intensive.
Whether I’m right or not, I don’t know. I don’t claim to be a compsci major, so feel free to refute my thoughts if you have any further insight.
They’ll get the wrong impression anyway. “Oh I see they don’t think mvc3 is fun. Well let’s just make more versions of SF4 then!”
Besides, I won’t pass on a good offline game just because it has a shit online. You need to find another way.
been looking for a post like this for quite some time. Thank you.
Don’t know if the post is still around anywhere, but ponder says that he isn’t doing anything revolutionary with ggpo, other than applying techniques that have been around for years to fighting games.
If you want to highlight the difference between GGPO/netcode that realizes the internet is high latency and high packet loss and not GGPO/naive netcode, you can tell people to download netquake and quakeworld, and try em out. Netquake is basicly where fighting games are now. Quakeworld is where we want to be. I’d take a couple of rollbacks over having to dodge rockets before i ever even saw a someone who could shot a rocket.
Thanks for confirming my assumptions based on my time with Halo 3/Reach. That makes me feel a little better in stating that argument.
Also, you will forever be remembered by me for having one of the most chilled out av’s on SRK.
Two things need to happen for better netcode.
- Developers need to look for alternatives to input-delay based netcode the way the FPS genre did
(GGPO is a good example of this) - The netcode needs to be developed outside of Japan. Japan is a very compact country with some of the fastest internet in the world. Internet code that’s optimal for them is not going to be optimal for anyone outside of Asia.
- Capcom has already done this by buying a license for GGPO. Namco has followed suit.
- GGPO has already been developed…outside of Japan. Very rarely does japanese game companies license their properties to be developed (In any segment) by the western world, so trying to get them to send it over to Capcom USA for the netcode to be implemented is fool’s errand.