It’s more as an example of top tier not dominating.
He has a good match-up against sagat though? I need to look at the tiers again. I always thought that he was around mid-low mid tier wise.
As much as I like tier lists discussions, some people need to realize that for like 90% of us they don’t apply. Strong odds are that we lose because we’re worse than our opponent, not because his character is better than ours.
I don’t know if this whole thing was addressed to me or not, and I don’t really care.
I never said that J Wong was the best MvC2 player (he’s not), nor did I say he used low tier in tournaments (he doesn’t). He does, however, use many low tier characters in mm, while obviously not as important as tournament play he uses them very, very well. That’s because he has a fundamental understanding of the game and those characters and understands the mechanics well. He can also translate it into playing, something that some of the most genius minds in MvC2 aren’t blessed with.
I suppose the same would be true of all the other top MvC2 players if they bothered to ever play low tier, but as far as I’m aware they don’t.
Top tier mahvel is actually a really good example of what I’m talking about btw. Before I really explain in detail what I mean, let me just give one example. Magneto requires a lot of technical execution to play well, you have to be really fucking fast and know what you’re doing. Once you begin to get the technical execution down, however, he’s a one hit kill character (in the top players hands). While he requires a ton of technical skill to use effectively, a lot of his shit (like a lot of shit in general) is relatively random (which I suppose is true of all mahvel), getting that hit could come from a lot of the “random” stuff that he throws out, or one of the many glitches in MvC2 could allow him to get that hit. Compare that to someone who, for some reason I have no idea why, played Roll. Roll versus Magneto would be an incredibly one sided match up. The absolute only way you could win is if you saw literally everything coming and countered it perfectly, and even then you’d probably lose. If the Roll player did win however, they would’ve had to put a TON of effort in to not only know their character, but the intricacies of Magneto and how to counter him effectively. They would’ve had to guess right every time, and be absolutely perfect on execution because of it. That’s the effort I’m referring to.
In any case, you’re reading far more into what I’m saying than you think. I don’t remember ever saying that its going to take no effort to win with Carl, or the other high tier characters for that matter. However I know, and you know as well you just don’t want to admit it, that in the example match I hinted at (Nu vs Tager, 8-2 matchup) Tager has to work very, very hard, and possibly get lucky, to win the match. V-13 can just stay back and do the occasional mixup/tie him up and there’s nothing he can do about it.
Carl of course takes effort for the loop. But combos aren’t really all that hard in this game. Sure, Carl’s loop is one of the more difficult ones, but tier lists assume expert players of their character to begin with. Were I a world class Carl player, I’m sure that the loop would be unconcious and not difficult to me. In fact, as a World Class player of character X, none of their shit is going to be difficult to me, and I’ll nail at least they’re most important combos almost every time. Or at least be able to do a couple of reps no problem.
With that portion of the tier list understood, the person with the disadvantaged match up is still going to have to put in more effort on top of their characters combo. The effort may not be technical, but they’re going to have to have superior mind games, faster reflexes, and generally their game will have to be way more “on” to win the match up then the person with the advantaged match up.
Does that mean that everyone that plays low tier is better than the people who play top tier? Abso-fucking-lutely not (and I know if I don’t say this, you’re going to say the same shit at me again :rolleyes:). It does mean that, in general, the low tier character is going to have to put in a lot of “effort” (non-technical as it may be) into their mind games and mix ups.
Anyway, I’ve now written way too many words on this.
EDIT:
lol truth unfortunately 
EDIT EDIT:
Yeah you’re right (though he technically lost, only because DP decided to run away storm and his low tier didn’t have an answer for that). But the only reason he could even play them versus top tier was because he had a really, really good understanding of the mechanics and low tier characters. And he certainly had to work a lot harder for those wins than DP did. I still call my point valid
Anyway, its just my opinion on tier lists, at a certain level they’re just measures of effort to win, and I will hear nothing different! Its still a bad idea to really pick a low tier character for major tournaments, as they’re a low tier for a reason.
Tiers mean nothing IF the game is balanced. You could pick low tier in VF, and it’s not a stretch to believe you’d win a tournament with them. Gulle and Vega in SFIV are amongst the worse (only talking about arcade here) but there are people in Japan who place decently with both characters. It’s not a stretch to believe they could win a tournament. In MOTW, Tizoc is amongst the worst characters in the game, but people have been able to win tournaments with him on occasion. It also isn’t a stretch to believe Johnny, I-no, and Chip can win a Accent Core tournament. But these are examples of balanced games, where the matchups honestly come down to matchup knowledge and player skill.
BlazBlue, unfortunately is not shaping up to be one of those games. The top 3 shut down too many people far too easily who are in lower tiers. Sure maybe A-tier can kind of compete with them, but overall the competitive viability of the characters appear to only be top 3, A-tier and that’s it. Sure Rachel is powerful but can more conceivably lose to anyone below A-tier. She’s kind of like Ken in 3s, amongst the top 3, but still doesn’t have retarded disadvantages over the cast like the rest of the top tier. As I said before, whether you want to admit it or not, there is going to be huge drop off on characters who aren’t top 5. I don’t even think we’ll see that much Carl in tournaments, despite his high placement. Even with the loop, he’s just worse than Jin, Ragna and the top 3.
Wow, that Carl loop is nasty.
I would have never thought to use him, but after that I might have to give him a fair shot.
Yeah, I’m not going to lie and say this isn’t true. I was going off about tier lists in general. I fully expect to see nothing but the top tier characters in a few months. We’re already seeing the beginning of it in fact.
Its really sad though, the game has so many unique characters, but so many of them get completely shut down by the top tier… I’m just really hoping the game has sold enough to make a few more iterations and get it balanced with all the same uniqueness to each character. I’d really like to see it as an honestly viable competitive game.
The Rachel player only thinks he has 2 great match ups, Tager and Carl. Everything else is 5-5 or 6-4, and 6-4 is still very winnable.
The Arakune player only thinks he has a great match up vs Tager, a 7.5-2.5. AND he thinks he loses to V-13 3.5-6.5
The V-13 player play only has one 7-3 listed. Verse tager. He feels Hakumen, Arakune, and Litchi are 6.5-3.5.
The Jin player doesn’t feel he has ANY bad match ups, as all his stuff is 6-4 or 5-5.
The Hakumen player ISN’T any of the big three (0, shadow, buppa), but he only feels he matches up poorly vs Arakune, V-13. He feels he is 4-6 Rachel. 4-6 is winnable.
The Tao player only feels she matches up poorly vs Arakune and V-13.
Dio only thinks Carl matches up poorly vs Rachel.
The ragna player only feels he matches up poorly vs Arakune.
So whining really seems pitiful to me. The only person who felt their character sucked vs a majority of the cast (except hakumen grumble grumble) is the Tager player.
Everyone else only has 1-2 bad match ups, because like I said, 4-6 isn’t THAT bad of a match up. 4-6 is winnable.
Less QQ more pew pew please.
Yea, Sagat has a tough time keeping up with him, because he’s so immobile. Also, Sagat can’t do much to punish his HP, J.HP, HK, ect.
EDIT: Jwong isn’t the best MvC2 player?
-_-;
Who is then? He wins every tournament easily.
I may be confusing his MvC2 results with SF results or something idk :shy:
There, I fixed it for you.
Sure enough
Actually, Nu is considered to be #1 by a lot of people. It doesn’t even matter if her shit is predictable, she incurs nearly no risk for throwing out swords at her sweet spot range, as the disadvantage on block is a joke. The only characters that can get around her bullshit easier than others are Tao and Jin, and those are 5-5 match ups at worst for her; everyone else she’s at advantage with. Yes, it’s true that her drives are predictable, but her zoning/lockdown with them is so good that it doesn’t even matter. Good Nu players will just play on reaction to everything you do and use the appropriate drive to lock you back down at any angle. It also doesn’t help that any defensive move you do (burst is useless 90% of the time, DA just puts her AWAY from you if she ever got close) puts her right back in where she wants to be, and her meter gain is so retarded that once you do manage to get in, she can just burst or usually DA you away right away.
That aside, if you want to go purely by match ups, Nu is definitely #1 because she has zero bad match ups unlike the other two of the top three.
5.5 - 4.5 and 6-4 are not un winnable match ups though, I guess that’s what I was getting at. She’s not this unbeatable monster lol. She’s a really good character, but I feel her shit will get less overpowered as people get more use to seeing her. She doesn’t have unblockable bs like Arakune.
I don’t want to say she can’t get people off her, but I know she has a really hard time pushing people back out once they corner her and get up in her grill.
Amerikune has an unblockable??
EDIT: Wait are you referring to the unblockable distortion drive? Or does he actually have an unblockable regular hit?
Well, it is true that she’s not unbeatable, but she is still the best character in the game. There are a lot of things wrong with her that need nerfing, mainly her damage and meter gain. The balance patch will probably address those issues.
Balance patch? Link?
Discussion aside, just fyi.
No official announcement yet, but Harry from Aksys Games has said there is a blanace patch that is coming out sometime this summer/early fall (August or sometime after that) that will nerf the top three, with Nu being the priority, followed by Arakune.
Arakune WOOT!!!
I dont think tager is that bad. Once we all get into the game more I have a feeling Jin and Ragna will go up. Just me though.
Who told you that lie? Nu and Arakune both have a unblockable( not sure how many tho).
Good to hear. I think sometime in the future someone should make a thread on how to balance BB without turning the top 3 into shit. Maybe they’ll consider what we have to say…