Oh, I think a number of people can agree with you on THAT.
Bro, she’s not pushing you across the screen. Anyone with a good poke (so ironically not Noel herself) can do a short dash and that normal and basically stop any attempt at pressing buttons she may try. For example, she does bloom trigger, then tries to do 3C to maybe go under something like Rag’s 5B. His 5C will just hit her counter hit without him even needing to dash (you won’t even see the startup of the 3C). And if she just blocks or jumps, he still gets near her before she can start anything. She could try her D again but that’s also subject to counter hit.
So let me just go through a short list of stuff since you insist on not learning through experience and what we’ve already told you
Bloom Trigger: At a heavy disadvantage, you can dash normal to basically stop anything else she tries. If your character is too slow to get maybe a counter hit setup, you’ll still have the advantage of the neutral game before she does.
Spring Raid: Shit’s unsafe on block. PUNISHABLE unsafe.
d.6C/6B/6D: Unless she used a normal with heavy block stun prior to this, you can hit her out of these during startup.
2D: Use you’re AA normal
j.4D: See 2D. Or just jump.
4D: her hurtbox moves behind a wall shaped hitbox, but you can hit her through that if you’re close enough or use a long enough normal.
I can’t believe that I’m going to post in this topic. I just read the past few pages because I was bored, and sadness ensued. Alrighty, I’m going to try to give you the lowdown on how to beat Noel. Emphasis on “try,” haha.
As far as invulnerability goes, only Noel’s drive starters and Assault Through have invuln. The only drive move that should really give you trouble is 2D. It’s hella fast for what it is, and some characters just can’t deal with it, they don’t have a reliable anti-air to stuff it. You really have to respect her 2D, combos off of it don’t do a lot of damage for a drive starter, but it’ll do enough to make you sad. 4D is somewhat troublesome, but it can be easily beaten by a move with a big hitbox or a low, though lows are probably your safest bet, by far. 5D is hella slow, and the invuln only lasts for the initial part of the move, where she starts stepping forward, so despite its rather large hitbox, you can just knock her out of the startup, if you choose to. 6D can low profile, but it’s also really slow, same treatment as 5D. Does anyone use j.D as a drive starter anymore? If so, air throw is strong. j.4D has no invuln at all, but she can pass through her opponent. However, you can straight-up hit her out of that as well or just jump to avoid it. As far as Assault Through goes, she is only invincible for the part of the move where she passes through the opponent. The actual part where she hits you with the shoulder rush has none at all, so you can poke her or even throw her out of it. Bloom Trigger and Spring Raid are both pretty unsafe on block, though Bloom Trigger can push pretty far back, so you may have a harder time punishing that. On the other hand, rather than trying to beat out her drives, you can simply block. However, then you have to worry about eating a drive mixup.
Any follow-ups in chain revolver don’t have invuln, but you still have to respect them, because if you get tagged by one, and the Noel can confirm, it’s gonna take a nice chunk of your lifebar. Just because some of them are slow or they are negative doesn’t really matter. d.5A > d.6A is a legit blockstring, and it’s airtight, you can’t mash out of that. d.6B is actually a pretty quick overhead, 21 frames is pretty fast. d.6C can be used for frame trapping. You get the idea. However, her slower drive moves (B, C, and D follow-ups mostly) can definitely be thrown or DP’d out of.
And yes, Livewire, chain revolver is a cancel, not a link, just putting that out there.
Honestly, any decent Noel won’t be relying on her drives, because they are insanely punishable on whiff. And even if they whiff, she can still continue throwing out chain revolver moves, in an attempt to make themselves safer. She can still special cancel her driver starter with optic barrel, so that’s something to keep in mind as well, as it’s only -3 on block. Drive spammers are their own thing, but generally, most drive spammers only spam the one string that they know, so once you figure out what they’re doing, you should be able to react accordingly. Regardless, you still have to respect her tools, as derpy as they may be.
Airk, if I remember correctly, you play Tsubaki. I don’t know a whole lot about this particular match-up, but I would recommend looking into it. If I remember correctly, 623A will most likely trade with most of her drive attacks, so that’s not the worst thing you can do. Does she still have projectile-invuln on her B specials? They may eat through any of her drive attacks that aren’t 214D, d.6B, and d.6D. Also, I recommend going into training mode and setting the dummy to do overhead, sweep, 214D until you can block them on reaction, which you should be able to do with some practice.
Bottom line: you really have to respect Noel (even if she’s dumb), and have a good knowledge of what she can do if you want to do well against her. Her mixup isn’t too scary and her neutral isn’t that strong, but she’s got really good damage, meter gain, and corner carry. She has the tools to do well, and she can really run a train on you if you underestimate her. I play Noel and even I think 2D is bullshit, but I’m still gonna use it if people keep falling for it, you know? Honestly, the best way to learn how to beat any character is to try and learn as much about them as possible.
Yeah, I kinda noticed looking back that the descriptions I was using for my “link” claims actually applied more to “cancels”, and was in “gogogo, get point across check over later” mode. That’s a pretty good write up, even though I’m not sure I agree on the “2D is bullshit” thing since just about every firsthand experience I’ve had or seen with it involves people blocking it most of the time, but that could just be due to it kind of being a move that gets predictable with experience. And to answer your j.D question, I don’t think most people use it as a starter unless it’s a Counter Hit off of something that it can punish.
Well, that only makes sense that people are going to block moves if you are being predictable. That just sort of assumes that your opponent doesn’t learn. And if they don’t, by all means, continue using 2D.
But considering that 2D starts up in 19 frames, has low invuln from the first frame, and can’t be thrown, it is kind of dumb. It’s basically a mini-reversal that you can cancel into other things to make it safe without meter. It’s not as if it can’t be beaten, because it can, but you’ve got to be really smart about it.
Well, yeah. The low invulnerability and the lack of being able to be throw reversed kind of helps it. I believe if people have a standing jab they can hit you out of it on startup, though. And Hakumen…well, Hakumen just has to laugh and hit D.
Everyone has a standing jab, haha. And yes, but it depends both on the jab and if you time it correctly.
Well yeah, lol. I probably should have said if they have a GOOD standing jab. Which, as you pointed out, Noel herself ironically doesn’t have in terms of one that can beat 2D since 5A’s range is too short and 5B and 5C’s startup is a bit too long I believe. Of course, I could be wrong since I don’t run into mirrors often.
Noel would have to 6A or 4D to beat 2D, I believe.
Yeah, that sounds about right on the 4D thing. 6A I feel would be hit or miss depending on distance.
Just tested out a few things. Mainly relating to testing out/trying to find universal options that beat out both 2D and 4D.
Valkenhayn’s 2C. While it does have an undesirable amount of recovery and isn’t the fastest move in the world, it seems to be doing the trick in the corner. Not to mention the fact that a grounded 2C CH is my second strongest starter in the corner and leads into 6.2k meter-less.
2C will be relatively useless mid-screen though, but oh well.
There may be other Valkenhayn specific tidbits relating to the Noel match-up that I’m unaware of.
Discussion of Noel’s drive needs its own thread.
We’ll name it “Airk’s Plight: Noel Edition”.
Lol, well played. But truthfully, I think it’s been covered enough the past few pages.
That’s enough about Noel’s Drive! I want everybody to shut up and drop that subject right now! Start making better subjects of BBCP besides complaining about characters, gameplay, whatever! JUST SHUT UP!
If it has its own thread it would be closed pretty soon.
Just go to Dustloop and stay on their forums.
Can we talk about how moe and kawaii Noel is?
Can we talk about how fucking awesome it is that Rags can dash cancel dead spike? I’m just imagining how great of a pressure tool that’ll be.
Yes you can, but like I said don’t complain about characters, gameplay, etc.
I can’t speak for anybody else, but for what it’s worth I wasn’t really complaining about anything.