In a game where Nu and Valk are top tier, Tager cannot be S. His matchups against those two are just awful.
We’ll agree to disagree.
Whatever. Regardless of where he’s ranked, Tager will always have like a 7-3 advantage over Noel anyway, so it won’t make much difference to me, lol.
One of the most brutal matchups in FG history yo (for Noel).
I main both of them, so at least I have a pretty good handle on the matchup. 
I’m not saying he’s not good, but in theory, tier lists are based on matchups, and Tager still has most of his traditional problems.
I never really figured out why he’s considered such a bad matchup for Noel though. What’s so special about her vs any other character who has to play up close? It seems to me that stuff like 2D being airborne would mean she actually has options against him that a lot of other characters kinda don’t. Does she just have terrible jump cancellable normals or something? Her 5B seems perfectly fine for this? Sure, she’s not Jin (F*** 5C jump cancel on block, WTF.) but no one goes around saying “Tager is a terrible matchup for Makoto/Tsubaki/Bullet/whatever other random character that has to actually fight with normal tools.”
Most of her specials have semi-limited range and consists of a short burst of bullets. sledge hammer can counter all of that and get a free counter hit.
Players actually consider Rachel Alucard S-tier in BBCF now? If I can recall, she has been hit with nerfs during this iteration to the point that players often made fun of her.
Times have changed.
A lot of the things Tager has have armor and projectile invincibility. The issue for Noel is that a LOT (and I mean a LOT) of her moves have projectile properties, not just say, Optic Barrel, Silencer, and her Distortion Drives (although the first hit of Fenrir ISN’T projectile property and can’t be thrown). Almost all of her Drives count as projectiles (there might be like 1 or possibly 2 that don’t), and a lot of her C normals count as projectile too. As a result, you’re stuck using A and B normals a lot and have a number of your options cut off. Also, A starters, and a lot of B starters (minus 6B in the corner) lack the same damage that C and D starters do. Hell, not to mention that in a lot of cases her combos are longer and do less damage than most characters (compare what say, Ragna, Jin, or Azrael can get off of similarly long combos) in the first place.
Since Tager is a character relying a bunch on reads, knowing that a number of your options are instantly relegated to being used in situations where “I know he’s expecting something else”, makes it easier for him to get said reads. Plus, Noel doesn’t have the best wakeup options, or things in the way of DPs to begin with, so taking away from things she does have makes it suck. And well, if you try to mix up and go for 6B in the corner (or much at all really) you’ll just get Tager Buster’d. You can try and just grab into combos a lot, but well…going for a lot of grabs on Tager is always dangerous. I think the only time it wasn’t THAT bad of a matchup was in BBCS2, and that’s because Noel was in the Top 3 characters in that game. I can’t pretend to speak for every Noel player, but I can only really relate what I’ve experienced in my 7 years of being a Noel main since Calamity Trigger, lol.
I guess not being able to apply drive pressure because of concerns about getting Sledged in the face are legit, but so many Noel players tell me that this isn’t how the character is supposed to be played against anyone because it’s “not safe” so whatever? And I don’t really see why her C normals being projectile matters. It’s not like Tager is gonna randomly sledge during a standard blockstring or something. And anyway, most characters who aren’t Jin can’t really use C normals in pressure against Tager either because they need to be able to jump cancel stuff to keep safe; Ragna can kinda get away with it if he’s careful because his 5C has silly range, but in general? No one gets to run long blockstrings on Tager. Is Noel particularly dependent on these?
Similarly, I don’t see what the deal is with 6B - this is the same issue that every character with a ‘standard overhead’ faces. Noel’s isn’t any more predictable or easy to buster on reaction than anyone else’s. The second thing you learn when trying to play Tsubaki against Tager is ‘6A is usually a bad idea. You don’t really get to run mixup on Tager’. The first thing you learn is “You don’t get to do long blockstrings.”
Losing 4D/2D mixup on wakeup is a problem though. This was annoying for Tsubaki when her A-DP was a projectile too, but Fenrir still works, so it’s not like you have no options.
Most of this sounds like a lot of Noel players who haven’t tried playing other characters and think their problems with Tager are unique when honestly, it doesn’t seem like they are very different from what everyone in her general archetype faces when dealing with Tager. Not being able to do long blockstrings and having overheads be risky is just facts of life when playing Tager, not Noel vs Tager. I’m not feeling the 7-3 matchup here. Not unless Noel is actually just worse than Tager overall, anyway.
It should be worth noting that 2D and 4D usually aren’t what you should be overly trying for on wakeup anyway. I mean seriously, you try that shit on a character that can punish it, and you’re just asking to lose a bunch of health. It’s the same way that back in the day, newbie Noel players would make the mistake of trying to use j.4D to get out of the corner and…well, let’s just say, 9 times out of 10, don’t do that.
I’ll file that in the same category as “You shouldn’t use Noel’s drive for pressure.” namely “This doesn’t match my perceptions, but I’ll take your word for it.” but it begs the question then - if you’re not supposed to use your drive for pressure, and you’re not supposed to use your drive on wakeup, what, exactly, about these moves being projectile matters a damn bit in the Tager matchup? What we’ve got here, as far as I can tell is:
[list]
[] Noel’s C attacks are projectiles, but most characters don’t/can’t/shouldn’t use their C attacks against Tager except as punishes, and anyway, Tager isn’t gonna randomly sledge you out of a non-drive blockstring
[] Many of Noel’s drives are projectiles, but you’re not supposed to use them in pressure anyway, so the fact that Tager can sledge them shouldn’t matter
[] Noel loses wakeup options you say she shouldn’t be using anyway
[] Noel’s overhead can be bustered, but this is true for everyone except maybe Jin
[/list]
So…what’s the difference between how Noel has to approach Tager vs anyone else, since she’s “not supposed” to use the stuff that’s unique to her in the sorts of situations where Tager can punish it anyway?
Noel’s 5C is one of her better pokes (another being 5B), her 2C is often good, but not here and her Drives can be used for high/low mixup because 6D/d.6D and d.6B essentially have the same startup, to give an example. And as for what’s so different about other characters that fight Tager, there’s the obvious example of the Nu or Mu matchup, but you’d probably have to ask someone who uses a character that has a good matchup against Tager, that wins in different ways than the pure zoning cases do.
If Tager is sledging you out of 5C in neutral, you are doing something dumb though. o.o
And I could’ve sworn that like when I was complaining about how obnoxious Noel’s drive mixup was in the gear grinding thread, you yourself were telling me “No way man, it sucks, it’s not safe at all!” Let’s see…
Yeah, here we go:
So how is the Tager matchup different? Obviously characters who play completely differently from Noel will have different experiences with the matchup, but Makoto/Bullet/Tsubaki/Ragna/Jin/Plat/Terumi all basically have the same sorts of issues with him - Ragna and Jin have a few mitigating tricks, but otherwise, I feel like the same problems apply to all short range characters in this matchup. And no one goes around saying Tager is 8/2 or 7/3 matchup for the rest of those characters.
I feel like you might be willingly trying to overlook things here…
I’m not deliberately “overlooking” things, but people do have a long habit of not really explaining how you are “supposed” to use Noel’s drive. I keep getting told that it’s not for pressure/mixup/wakeup, but when I watch matches, that’s what people use it for.
If her drive IS for pressure, then yes, Tager complicates it somewhat (though But people keep indicating that that’s not a good idea against anyone, so… ?
Let’s take a step back. Pretend I’m learning Noel and while I know what her moves DO, I don’t know what they’re for. What’s Noel’s gameplan in an ordinary matchup like Ragna or Jin?
BlazBlue Central Fiction Promo Video
Any news on the Eu release of Cf?
Es Trailer
Aksys Game announced that BBCF will be released in USA at Winter 2016 Fall 2016!
I know you all have seen this video, but it’s uploaded by Aksys Games on their YouTube Channel and the video description confirmed it.