Is this match-up considered as difficult as guile. Seems like they have the same tools against bison. Hard to get in but once in, its all good.
Personally I don’t think so. I think its even. Its no where near as hard getting on on Dee Jay as it is Guile.
Dee Jays projectiles don’t have the godlike recovery time that Guiles do. Projectiles also have standard charge time, unlike Guile.
He doesn’t have Guile air throw either which absolutley commands the air. His air normals seem quite good which is similar to Guile.
His anti air options are good but not quite as good as Guiles.
Unlike Guile, on wake up Dee Jay is immune to cross ups once he has meter. You pressure his wake up from the ground rather than the air.
Dee Jay has very bad footsies.
He’s low damage.
He can’t punish EX.PC on block without Super or Ultra 1.
Bison gets out of pressure pretty easy when he has meter.
i think it’s a hard match up for bison personally. not nearly guile hard, but i think 6-4 deejay.
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deejay can anti-air bison perfectly. if bison pushes any button in the air then deejay’s slide will AA him 100% of the time if bison is landing in front. there’s a special “dead zone” where the slide will whiff, but bison won’t hit deejay either. on top of that, if deejay knows the dead-zone then all he has to do is use his cl.mp and it will AA bison regardless. it’s not a hard distance to measure out either. lastly regarding the slide… the solution to getting by is to empty jump and punish with s.mk if deejay hit you too close. another problem arises however when the deejay catches onto this tactic. he can use his far.rh or is far.hp. if you pushed a button you’ll likely trade or lose depending on what deejay decided to do and if you empty jump you’ll obviously be knocked clean.
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his max-out (air slasher) is very very quick. deejay’s like to moan that it’s not as good as guile’s sonic boom but in terms of this match up it pretty much is.
air slasher - 12 start up, 28 recovery (40)
ex slasher - 13 start up, 26 recovery (39)
lp boom - 9 start up, 29 recovery (38)
mp boom - 9 start up, 31 recovery (40)
hp boom - 9 start up, 33 recovery (42)
ex boom - 11 start up, 29 recovery (40)
it actually makes me roll my eyes when deejay players don’t think their fireball is good, or as good (and in some cases BETTER) than guile’s booms. guile’s boom recovers slower if he wants faster fireballs, deejay’s are consistent across the board regardless of what button he presses.
have you ever tried catching a sonic boom with u2 or exsk? pretty much the same thing when it comes to deejay.
before i move on, let’s put the above two points together. deejay has a super fast fireball and can swat bison out of the air with two very good AA options. sounds like GUILE now, doesn’t it? bison is forced to move towards deejay, dodging fireballs and AA options in the exact same manner.
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deejay doesn’t have good footsies or damage? well neither does guile but that doesn’t stop him from running a train on bison, does it? guile has far.hp to spam against bison, but deejay has slide. granted, deejay’s slide isn’t as spammable because it’s a slower move, but it actually beats A LOT of what bison does on the ground too. it stuffs bison’s s.rh, s.mk and sk, and of course knocks down. so much for bison’s footsies. the best bison can do is to get close enough to hit deejay with s.mk during the first few start up frames of the slide. if you’re too far or if deejay’s slide has lowered itself too much already then deejay will go under you for a hit. there’s also a small chance you’ll be able to block but also be unable to punish from that spacing.
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deejay’s last two good tools against bison is dread kick/sobats and his jackknife/upkicks. if at any the sobats hit bison then he gets pushed back pretty far into a really advantage position for deejay (further away from him). oh, and they’re pretty good at stuff bison’s grounded normals too so it’s always a threat. the best thing for bison about the sobats are that they’re bad recovery, but in a footsie scenario the best punish you’ll get is probably a s.mk or s.rh. they can be spaced to get pretty safe and deejays say that doing so is hard vs bison’s walk speed, but deejay walks only slightly slower than bison so i don’t chew on that excuse. the upkicks are self-explanatory. just another very good AA option that beats bison’s jump ins and non-safe jump cross ups.
now im not gonna lie, i painted a pretty bad picture for bison in this match up… but here’s why it’s not guile bad:
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a good read gets you A LOT more in this match up than it does vs guile. once you’re actually in on deejay the good times can start rolling because deejay has no reversal that hits low. you can always meaty him for additional pressure. while you’re pressuring you don’t have to always be worrying about deejay getting away because he can’t FK you like guile can, and at this close range your normals will stuff almost anything deejay has on start up
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you can lame deejay out better than you can vs guile. unless deejay has ultra or super stocked, just wait for your moment to expc away to safety. if deejay starts his crossup nonsense then teleport away to safety. or ex dr (but move away from him or his slide among other things will catch you on the way down).
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deejay can’t escape corner pressure. this is kinda similar to the first point but you don’t really have to worry about FK’s so once deejay is in the corner (if you get him there) then he’s going to have a very hard time getting out
long story short, deejay doesn’t quite have AS good tools as guile does for keeping bison out, but they’re still pretty darn potent almost to the same degree. deejay is slightly more susceptible to pressure (corner or general) once bison (finally) gets into deejay’s uncomfortable zone than guile. deejay can’t keep the pressure very well on bison since he has no way of punishing bison’s better escape tools.
in my eyes if deejay plays a very guile-like zoning game you’re gonna frustrated if the deejay does it right. realistically, what can you do other than take a guess or try to walk him to the corner while avoiding a KD (that resets the spacing)? the reward for getting in is much much higher than guile, so that’s why it’s only 6-4, because you can actually do your work once you’re in. i imagine bison getting properly zoned out by deejay 6 out of 10 times. the 4 out of 10 times i see bison winning is when deejay loses a significant life lead and can’t catch bison so he is unable to properly play his zoning game, or he let bison get too close to him near a corner.
Where are those Dee Jay numbers from? http://www.sfframedata.com/walkthrough/pages/deejay.php ? The recovery frames aren’t on the same basis as Guile’s. lp boom takes 29 frames total, it’s not 29 frames after the startup. Like wise, Deejay’s air slasher is listed as (from the wiki):
non-ex: 37 frames total
ex: 52 frames total (which makes sense, since after all he’s throwing two fbs)
Don’t get me wrong, Deejay’s fb is still good (recovers faster than tiger shot), but he doesn’t recover as fast as Guile.
OP should use the matchup threads.
yeah, i use the sfframedata walkthrough pages. i also have all the hitbox videos from SUPER on my pc so i can count manually or look at certain boxes when i like.
you are right about deejay’s ex-fireball, though that’s not the one i’m concerned about in the match up. i don’t know why on the sfframedata page it’s wrong, but i counted manually and it’s 52 altogether. non-ex is actually 39 frames altogether from when i counted manually.
and about guile’s fireball… shit! it IS 29 total. that sfframedata page is screwy. some are right and some are wrong. so basically deejay’s fireballs are ~8-10 frames slower than guile’s depending on the button pressed.
well, a bit of egg on my face about the fireball numbers BUT i still think the match up is poor for bison. just my opinion though.
Keep in mind that the hitbox vids are from super, and that Deejay’s fb recovery got buffed in AE.
Bison beat DJ 6-4. If you are having problems with DJ, then you are probably playing the matchup as if he was Guile. He ain’t Guile.
Da Knut on XBL right, damn dude you lag…
I guess
I always thought it was slightly in Dee Jay’s favor, but nowhere near as hard as Guile. His recovery is nothing like Guile’s, just don’t ever jump into him unless you know the fireball is coming. You just gotta play it patient still. The good thing is he doesn’t have an air grab, slower fb recovery, or will make you eat his fist about 3 times when walking forward.
s.mk against dee jay is absolutely gold, c.lk also. the only thing similiar between dee jay and guile is their fireballs. deejay has worse AA, not good pokes to keep bison out unlike guile who has s.hp, s.hk and backfist. guile kan actually quite easily get himself out of the corner. dee jay cannot. but still imo the matchup is 5-5, SLIGHTLY in bisons favour
So how can this be slightly in Bison’s favor? you listed a bunch of flaws. Also DJ can’t mix up Bison because he has too many escape options. DJ needs to get damage from somewhere, right?
It hurts me deeply the amount of defeatist mentality I find in these matches thread. I believe more emphasis should be made on what DEEJAY CAN DO TO BISON and not HOW BISON SMK RAPES DEEJAY, on paper it looks like Bison have the upper hand but when you adapt and play the player then you can slam down on Bison.
ok I think I took too much sake and wound up in the wrong thread lol! came off on the wrong note. sorry guys I humbly apologize for the outburst.
well these are some are things I know of which works well against Dee Jay. i was just disagreeing with a gentleman above me saying bison has a hard time against dee jay, which in my opinion he doesn’t. its pretty even in fact. dee jays s.mk works pretty well against bipson, try sticking it out after a blocked lk scissor kick, as long as you’re outside of bison c.lk range.
although dee jays zoning is not as good as guiles, dee jay can zone bison out with booms and slide and he has other good normals to boot. my point was he doesn’t have amazingly good normals against bison like guile, but he still has some good ones. once bison gets dee jay in the corner, dee jay is fucked. other than that its pretty even slightly in bisons favor. there are actually some other tricks dee jay has but I don’t have time to list them right now :P. just be patient, adapt to the player and punish his bad habits and mistakes accordingly. this matchup aint bad for either side.
I don’t think this matchup is as bad as guile for Bison. Bison can own DJ based on one main factor, and that is c.lk. On wakeup c.lk owns DJ and that constant harassment, for which DJ has little defense, gives Bison the advantage.
Bisons footises beat deejays, nuff said really. you can even punish his kicks at certain ranges. Use ult one to stop his zoning pressure and your golden
Also
DONT JUMP!
