rugals fireball is good mainly because by the time it reaches a midscreen opponent for them to roll through, rugal has already recovered and can counter accordingly. it’s still as weak to jumps as any other projectile though, since you can jump as early as you want and still hit him
both geese’s and rock’s reppukens are kinda meh. i mean, just compare their utility to other fireballs: easier to react to, have long recovery, and are ground fireballs
best special move overall is probably blanka rc elec, but on that theory fighter level where people are hella good at 1 frame links, chun rc legs for 3 hits (which makes it safe) is probably the best
i would consider Rolento’s knife as pretty good as well, but RC’ing it doesn’t make as much of a difference, in my understanding. It just makes part of the jump startup invincible? But as far as controlling space and recovery it’s pretty solid, but the knife itself can be ‘hit’ by the opponent and neutralized, and punishing rolento for using a knife in the first place is wholly different than dealing with other characters projectiles.
didn’t you state yourself that we should “assume perfect RCing”? RCed moves dont trade with anything, so now the criteria you have for good DPs changes to:
speed
damage potential / comboability
hitbox
set ups after hit
relative safety
… among other things
i’d put cammy’s dp easily at #2 since its relative risk is so low against chars without meter (and still not easy to punish well for a lot of chars with meter)
morrigan’s strong dp is safe to air JDs, which is a huge huge plus. even without RCs, the dp works perfectly fine as long as you do it deep
Whoops, yeh i forgot my own criteria, my mistake. Although technically i’m interested in both scenarios, i didn’t originally ask that because i figured it’s too complicated a question, namely because of all the factors like you mention.
But in talking about NON-RC’ed DP’s… so it’s really just how deep the opp is when executing her DP? i swear i’ve had the thing trade tons of times, even when i’m right on top of them. It’s the usual suspects that do the trading, air rh’s with sagat/blanka/bison/ken. It’s rare that they straight-up stuff it, but trading hits while playing as morrigan makes me
Sagat and Ken are top tier dp’s w/o a real winner imo. Sagat’s does more damage at highest level, but ken has a 2 frame jab dp with huge invincibility and very very little recovery.
Top Tier:
Sagat
Ken
High Tier:
Cammy (lower damage but very difficult to punish cuz of very far push away on block)
Akuma (2 frame jab dp w/ lots of invincibility as well)
Iori (large window of invulnerability w/ 4 frame startup, and it hurts, a lot)
Upper Mid Tier:
Ryu (lots of invincibility but more recovery and 3 frame startup)
Ryo (heaps of priority for some reason and harder to punish then most, decent invulnerability)
Honorable mentions:
Kyo: can connect his super off of a traded strong dp which is nice, however there is a window between the invincibility of this dp meaning he gets hit out or trades way too often
Joe: His DP’s have bad startup but lots of invulnerability; the short version is very difficult to punish w/o a very lengthy normal
Athena: bad startup at 8 frames but good invulnerability window. highly punishable however.
Morrigan: 4 frame startup is very good but low invulnerability window and bad priority when the invulnerability window is over means it’s not good enough for high tier
Mid:
Rest
Low:
More Rest
Best Specials In Game Period:
RC Electricity
RC Hurricane Kick (!!! HATE THIS POS)
RC Center of Gravity
RC Lightning Legs
RC Iori Rekka
RC TNT Punches (Baku cancel follow-ups are theory fighter top tier)
RC Hard Edge (barely made the list because it’s punishable but fast)
RC Vega Ball
RC Funky Kick
RC Boom
I never play zangief so I wouldn’t know the answer to this but is there a point to RCing SPD’s? Like they come out instantly so does RCing do anything for it?
That first post you quoted wasn’t mine! I think this qualifies as misrepresentation and slander!!!:annoy:!!!
Totally agree, but the FB’s are used in contexts and for the most part contexts are being used to explain why they’re good or bad. Like buk said, there’s a lot more to it than the frames.
EDIT:
No, but 360+K (the far version, aka run-n-grab) is good though.
The fact that you put this as number 2 makes your list completely invalid. And not having the easiest executable invincible AA that is Geif’s RC lariat on the list is a damn shame. And i have no clue what Center of Gravity and Hard Edge is.
Center of Gravity is the English translation for Todo’s command grab…
I don’t think tier lists are necessary, as they distract from the interesting conversation.
So, I’ll try to make it interesting…
What about Terry’s Rising Tackle as an anti-air? Sure, it trades more often than you would like, and a lot of times, it doesn’t connect with all hits, and needs a charge, but when put into context a la roll, Rising Tackle, it becomes dangerous. Am I right? Sure, in theory fighter, you’re always blocking the right way (and also mashing for a tech throw just in case they mix it up with roll, throw), but does this always happen? No way! People still get hit by that! Am I right people? (pleasdon’tkillme)
i know i get hit by it, but i have trouble punishing rolls because i suck, i’m sure that shit wouldn’t fly with someone better. roll rising tackle only seems to work when you get predictable and get rolled through a poke or just out of pure randomness. it also sets up a CC which makes getting hit by it extra shitty
how are we qualifying best/worst though. I mean with rc electricity you can’t airblock it, safe from jd, safe on block, and you can basically hit confirm into cc anywhere on the screen, making it all that much more dangerous.
are we grading moves based on their damage potentail vs risk?
All this shit is highly situational anyway.
You have Anti-air/reversal, Okizeme, Space control.
Guile’s Booms are good anti-air. good meaty. and good for constant background pressure, it recovers fairly fast, so forward moving RC’s and this will generally miss each other. If done against someone in a wakeup situation, it’s a good meaty.
Reversal wise he’s hurting in the specials department, for the same reasons mentioned earlier with his Flash Kick, and the Boom’s 13 frame startup.
Moral of the story?
I dunno, keep your space about you?
Blanka’s Elec is anti-air, reversal, okizeme, and I’ve watched people do this to catch people who are trying to control the screen with their normals, though it (the elec itself) would have issues with the Boom, Blanka himself as a character really wouldn’t.
Thing with reversals is if that’s all you do you can be easily thrown with proper spacing, whereas Guile’s you can option select that shit against him.
RC Geif is a monster, if he had the same sorta power from earlier or even in CFJ he’d be a common beast here.
if you’re talking about a wakeup situation ambiguous crossup roll to like RC jab rising tackle, sure that’ll work once or twice. Then it’ll work once, and that’s it.
Terry is a walking anti-air platform anyway. Check him out in RB2.
It’s alright as a meaty at about backdash distance following a sweep, and you can still combo into it if it hits. Aside from that of course, really shouldn’t ever throw one from anything other than full screen.
He’d be better if his RC Burn Knuckles didn’t leave him hurting so badly.
I don’t get why people say RC boom is a good AA. it’s decent at best. It gets owned by P, blocked by C, not sure if K groove can punish. The only one it’s good for is vs A-groove as AA.
Don’t get me wrong, RC boom is still good, but it’s not that great of an AA imo.
