"BEST BIPSON!" - Dictator Match-Ups

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
461

Well I’ve been in Japan for about 2-3 weeks and I have to say… a lot of advice here doesn’t work. I mean, a lot of advice is good, don’t get me wrong, but a lot of it isn’t quite right either. For example, I talked to Kim1234 (qualified for SBO this year defeating several grandmasters in the process) and he lists Abel (in normal SF4) as 6.5/3.5 and says it’s Bison’s hardest matchup. Of course, I don’t think America has a lot of great Abels so this can be hard to believe, but everyone here has such an insane knowledge of the game it’s crazy.

As for certain matchups being “easy”- Japanese Zangiefs will make you cry if you think they’re easy. They don’t walk or jump into random st. roundhouses and they’ll greenhand the crap out of your roundhouse (and FADC out of it so that you can’t punish).

Once Rufus gets in, you’re eating throw unless you would rather eat a big combo. And any competent Rufus WILL get in. Standing roundhouse is good against Rufus, but it’s not the be-all-end-all move. Any good Rufus can get around it. His mobility with dive kicks makes the standing roundhouse seem slow.

Kim1234 says the Abel match-up goes like this: Abel whiffs Tornado Throw for meter and Bison can’t punish this. As soon as Abel makes Bison block cr. mk (I think that’s the move he was talking about), it’s a guessing game for Bison that’s definitely in Abel’s favor.

Anyway, that’s all I got for now.

462

lol shit, that sounds pretty bad there smoke.

anyways, when rufus gets up all in your grill with dive kicks, s.lk has been working for me to reset him in the air. what is everyone’s favorite option after this?

463

chuns Dash sweep > teleport.

464

well thats pretty demoralizing

465

I don’t know, that’s just my personal list. I assess a difficulty of the match depending on how much certain things hinder and limit my offense and defense.

Abel with EX meter is pretty good against Bison. Your EX meters for some escape and minor offense, while his EX meters used mostly for offense and closing the gap that you’re trying to create for him. I’ve been hit EX-Tornado while trying to EX-Psycho Crusher out once or twice, not point blank but it’s like when they are pretty close and out of f+MK range. Could be fluke but the possibility is there. My experience with Abel hasn’t been the best. You can hit him with s.HK out of Marsailles roll recovery but there’s some pretty ambiguous roll setups when they are close by too and some of them that cross up will break your charge so you’re stuck defending/crouch teching or just trying to swing your leg out to hit something.

I think Hyper Armor is really good on some characters and well maybe not everyone deserves to have a move with hyper armor, it’s one of those things that is really good against pokes and such.

But yeah, lame stuff like what Smoke described is pretty funny to read because it seems like being lame is the name of the game in Japan. Light uppercut/fireball spams to build meter. Oichi/tornado/Karakusa to build meter from far screen. You have to do something to stop it and half the time it’ll work.

Speaking of some command throws, Seth EX-SPD is not throw invincible and I think Abel EX-TT isn’t either.

466

I aint saying good Abels are a cakewalk, but I generally do not have problems against Abel. Its a matter of being quick enough to ex PC/SK whenever he attempts his step kick or fadc games, and being able to punish his rolls properly. He still has problems with a lot of what you can do on wakeup, although he still can roll away from most things.

And I have never said Gief is easy, u just need a proper gief gameplan, depending on the strengths of the other gief.

467

He’s probably talking about toward+mk dash cancel forward. The mix up that follows this is pretty bad for just about anyone, not just Bison. Abel players who roll or wheel kick alot honestly aren’t that good. Good Abels will use high priority normals like st.strong and toward+mk to counter your pokes, and will wait for their opportunities to get in. Laming them out honestly isn’t the best strategy, because they won’t do dumb punishable stuff all the time. The best strategy i’ve found is to take it to them, push them into the corner, and take advantage of the fact that Abel’s defensive options are really weak. Without meter, he has no answer to Bison’t close pressure. With meter, you have to watch out for EX CoD and TT, but they can both be baited.

Also agree on the Zangiefs. Smart Giefs will walk forward and use st.strong and option select green hand to counter poke you, as they try and push you into the corner. You do have to play defensively with a strong poke game, but 7-3 Bison is crazy. FADCing a green hand doesn’t make it safe though. Unless they are at absolute max GH range, you can tag the backdash with st rh, st fwd, lk super, or reversal lk scissors.

Not true. If the chun was smart and picked ultra 1, she can ultra punish the DR followup from full screen. She can also dash forward HK super it from slightly outside of fullscreen. Even with out it, she can walk you into the corner, and use cr.strong and cr.forward to duck the followup if you ever try to attack her.

468

Abel/Bison is not 6.5/3.5 in Japan or anywhere else. Whiffing Tornado throw is a great tactic. It sounds like it makes you think you need to get in there an stop him. I guarantee that does more damage than the meter itself. You may not be able to punish it directly but you can certainly put yourself in range where you can start pressuring. Just because there are some great players in Japan doesn’t mean the above advice is incorrect. I’m not talking about throwing out random HK’s, If I throw out an HK, or MK, slide HK/fadc it’s going to hit something. I will not be eating a green hand because I will be spaced so it doesn’t hit and I won’t be throwing out random moves that they can counter.

I still think Bison has an advantage over Zangief and if I ever do find one that can make my Bison cry, my main will make quick work of him. Blanka is 7-3 and I don’t care how good the Zangief is, he has to be godlike to win that match. This is ,of course, why Zangiefs don’t regularly win tourneys.

As far as Rufus goes, I don’t believe that I said to blindly just stand there and roundhouse. The roundhouse is a way to force Rufus to get in closer before he starts dive kicking. Once that happens, you can pressure with scissor kicks, if he lands right in front of you, c.lk - lk scissor kick., standing forward, etc, etc. Also, get profficient at comboing or pressuring without charge using a series of lp/lk’s into standing HK and then continuing to pressure with charge. As an example, c.lp c.lp s.lk s.lk s.hk - lk scissors, etc. When you start hitting that, dashing becomes fun and when someone wiffs a crossup, they are stuck blocking for a good five seconds if they didn’t eat it.

469

id love to hear andre’s input on this lol

470

No way Bison is over Gief. 5-5 at best if you’re optimistic. Gief didn’t lose anything noticeable besides an adjusted hit box on lariat and small jump nerf in this game for this match up.

I think some of you are overestimating the new Bison. I wouldn’t buy into those tier lists out there either by the way.

471

^**** them tiers mayne!

472

From my experience, when playing against grapplers and Rufus, I try to keep them out as much as possible because their mix up potential up close is far too threatening. But all it really takes for them is one good counterpoking guess to break my wall and in the worst case scenario, I guess wrong 2/3 times and die. Against terribad Zangiefs, you can spam s.hk to take them down. Average Zangiefs will try to read your empty poking pattern so I mix in some s.lk to make them whiff their mis-spaced counterpokes. When they jump from outside my s.HK’s range, I try not to attempt an AA because a late j.X will often trade, which is not in my advantage. The only way to really keep them from pushing you towards the corner is to scissors from time to time~ I noticed I get focused a lot too because I always try to connect moves @ max range/meaties; I should try experimenting with overshot (i.e. mk/hk or just PC) scissors to deal with those though the risk seems really huge~ Abel is a bit more complicated to deal with because of his ex moves and I haven’t found a way to deal with them other than staying at 3/4 screen and just waiting for them to make a mistake trying to get in. Sometimes I eat a fat combo because I tried to hold up calling a TT; sometimes I don’t attempt to tech throws and try to read TT attempts but I get thrown repeatedly instead; I eat f-mks trying to backdash out… I just breakdown mentally when I’m getting pressure/mixed up in close range. Same thing against Rufus(and cammy), it seems like I can’t avoid getting thrown if I don’t want to eat combos.

473

once abel get in range, is hard to get out, I teleport most of time and DR the hell but, eat U2 a lot and more…even EX PC can get thrown if too close when start up, abel rolling is very annoying…

I think tier boost bison so much because there is some hardcore bison fan in SF4, and when move up to ssf4…you know the beast is unleash for a while, and too many scrub not even playing sf4 come to this trap and made some bison GDLK.
I even see the video, the top bison on XBL from japan, and that over 15000 BP , rankin.g A bison get kill by normal furte…I don’t know what to said.

anyway I still love bison, my first character in SF series, even his tier drop below dan I will still use him.

BTW I hope new costume will make us feel a lot safer.

474

Well, I wasn’t attacking your post or anybody’s in particular. I just think we should be careful of bad advice that only works against bad players. And most of my post was my opinion (a “decent” Bison) mixed with feedback on Abel from a great player (Kim1234). This is based on arcade SF4 of course because that’s what most play in Japan. Also, Kim1234 seems to think a lot of characters have an advantage on Bison. I don’t necessarily agree with this, but he has a lot more experience than I do and is a lot better than me, so how can I argue with his logic?

Anyway, I don’t fight enough Abels to know what to do against him, but I guarantee that Kim1234 has. He has probably played (and beaten) several grandmaster class Abels. And just because you can get into range to pressure Abel, doesn’t mean it’ll work that well. Once you’re in the mixup, it’s pretty damn hard to get out and doesn’t favor Bison damage-wise. If you have video of playing a good Abel then I’d love to see it to see some of your advice in action. Not saying you’re wrong, but it’s hard to take your word over that of Kim1234’s with such a general bit of advice.

Oh and even hitting something with your poke is “random.” Unless you have great footsies, here’s what will happen: counter poke with the chop, which usually stuffs Bison’s pokes. My response to this is st. lk -> st. hk. They try to punish the twitch with their poke but the lk recovers so fast that you tag them with roundhouse. But you have to be careful because when they have meter, they’ll try to greenhand -> FADC. I don’t know how unsafe this is, but I haven’t had luck punishing this. Other than that, they’ll mix up (in arcade vanilla) shortjumps and late boot jump in as well as extended arm jump in (sorry I don’t play gief enough to know his moveset) to beat anti air attempts. I like to mix up cr. fierce with standing roundhouse to counter this OR do LATE st. roundhouse to tag them either as their move recovers or they land. Also, matchups aren’t guaranteed. That’s like saying Guile beats Bison for free in Vanilla. I heavily doubt that Blanka is the reason why Zangiefs don’t win tournies. A good gief can punish a lot of what Blanka does unless you have insane footsies.

I know the gist of how to play Rufus. I’ve played several master Rufuses here. The thing is, standing roundhouse doesn’t deter Rufus from anything unless you have insane fundamentals. Sure AndyOCR can do it to Jwong, but how many of us here could? A simple game plan may work great for one player, but horribly for another. Perhaps I’m just intimidated because Japanese Rufuses are much better than I am, but Rufus is one matchup I play like a zoning game. I know roundhouse keeps Rufus out of the air (or should; it doesn’t work as well as u’d think). I know st. lk beats dive kick. I know scissor kicks own Rufus until he has meter. The thing is, at least in my experience, it doesn’t matter. Rufus dive kicks will whiff in front of your recovering standing roundhouse and then has the options of doing another dive kick or poking which are both great options. Pokes beat out normals (since you’re still in recovery) and while you’re still in blockstun, they can start the dive kick spam. There’s very little you can do once the dive kicks start up that threatens Rufus. Standing lk beats it… but if you miss or mistime, you eat combo. Standing roundhouse is too slow. OS Crouch tech gets eaten alive by dive kick. Ex-Psycho gets Ultra’d. Ex-DR doesn’t threaten Rufus. The best luck I’ve had is by pressuring with scissor kicks until they have meter, then hopefully bait the reversal and keep up the pressure. Then I run away unless I want to eat the dive kicks. Oh and Rufus doesn’t care if he blocks roundhouse links. They do no chip.

Most of this is just my opinion of course and I may be wrong, but this is what it looks like from Japan.

475

Never happened to me and I play Chuns like Shizza on XBL, so… ya

476

If u put urself in range to pressure abel then that puts bison in danger as well, especially if u walk/dash forward which means abel can threaten bison with a lvl 2 fa to get in on him. Plus abel has more health and does more dmg than bison (even more with meter) that?s y theres some sense of urgency cuz if abel gets 3 bars than bison has to play extremely cautious for fear of getting hit with an ex cod fadc to whatev’s. I dont think the matchup is terrible for bison but it?s not easy especially if the abel player knows this matchup well.(imo)

477

I was messing around with ghetto DR mix-ups, and I came across some weird stuff. These are pretty gimmicky and can be punished if the opponent is not afraid of HS/DR, but they may have their uses in certain situations.

So the basic premise is to make your opponent guess what you’re going to follow up with after you get airborne. To set it up, you need throw a DR out after a blockstring, cr.short x3 for example. From there, Bison has a few options upon landing.

1.)The good ol’ Empty DR -> Throw setup. It works the same way here.

2.) Land and go into a combo starting with cr.short. It’s possible the opponent will expect to block the headstomp, and thus will be open for a low attack.

3.) Throw an EX move out. EX PC, SK, HS, and DR all have invincibility on start up, so that can be abused.

4.) Escape. If you think your opponent is catching on, you can Purple Hand before you touch the ground, or teleport upon landing.

5.) Ultra. It’s gimmicky and probably won’t work most of the time, but as a last ditch effort it may catch your opponent off guard.

Now one decent benefit with this is that certain reversal attacks whiff if the opponent is mashing them out as you fly in the air for you DR. Ryu, Ken, and Akuma’s HP or EX SRK, EX Messiah, Cannon Spike, Rising Jaguar, etc. etc will whiff. Just land and punish the opponent.

As long as the reversal does not travel a vertical distance in a short amount of time, like Sagat’s Tiger Uppercut, it will most likely whiff. U2 is free on Shotos that whiff a HP or EX DP, or certain other characters that whiff their reversal.

What I found to be a little weird is that when recording the Bison dummy using U1, is that the computer has some weird charge capabilities.

I would record the Bison to dash twice, Lvl 2 focus attack -> cr.short x3 xx DR, U1. While controlling a Shoto, I would make them whiff their reversal HP SRK. However, Bison would land and immediately U1, even though he just lost charge. I tried to emulate this manually, but I couldn’t ever get enough charge to U1 upon landing.

Against a Shoto, it’s not very practical anyways, Bison should probably be using U2. But against a character that U1 is useful against, like Rufus, this is by far the most desirable punish if you manage to bait the EX Messiah. Anyone have an explanation for how the recorded Bison dummy retains charge? Or do I just fail at charging? :frowning:

478

My guess is that when the inputs are, of course, recorded and even if you switch sides the game is still recognizing the original input. Meaning back is back, forward is forward regardless of the side. When it switches sides for the dummy input I guess it doesn’t actually break the recorded charge though.

479

You can do this as a person too, it’s just ridiculously impractical (do you really want to eat a combo because you MIGHT have charge left?). As soon as the person switch sides, immediately hold charge in the other direction. I think you have a very small amount of frames (maybe one?) to do this.

480

^ I think you are refering to auto correct my friend.