As I’ve said elsewhere, this whole movie was basically 90s Comics Industry: The Movie. The visuals, the lines, the action, the way characters act, it all radiates 90s extreme.
Batman shooting the shit out of mooks with gatling guns and squashing them with other people’s cars. Downright GRINNING when he’s got Supes down and about to stab him with a spear. Just the fact that when we see the aftermath of one of Batman’s offscreen raids at one point in the movie, the floor’s littered with big ol’ bullet casings.
This movie comes plastic-wrapped with ten different covers and three of them are foil. (EDIT: Tinfoil? Dur.)
And it’s a shame, because there are some great individual scenes in the movie.
The Bats VS Supes fight is basically a slugfest, but it’s a fun slugfest even if both characters take an IQ nosedive to make it happen (seriously, Supes, just keep your distance and TALK).
Bruce’s race into Gotham to try to help his employees doesn’t make a whole lot of sense if you think about it (dude, take your Bat-gear with you if you’re going to actively fly into Metropolis anyway), but it’s really well done, and shows exactly what needs showing.
Batman beating up the thugs in his solo fight against a whole crew of people is possibly the best Batman fight I’ve seen. Just, y’know, too bad they showed the whole thing in the trailer.
People crap on the Superman-saving-stuff montage, but I liked it. It’s a Superman with a lot on his mind who’s still doing his thing, and seeing how much he matters. It’s just too bad that the movie completely throws away the stuff he SHOULD have been thinking of, which isn’t “boo hoo some people don’t like me” and more “what are the long-term consequences of everything I’ve been doing?”
They hint at that at the start of the movie. That Supes needs direction, that he can’t just fly in, beat up some people and fly out, that he needs to consider the ramifications of all the big things he does. But then it all gets washed away in Lex having made some bullets and oh great a wheelchair bomb that got rid of some senators and hey there’s a cave troll let’s join up and beat it up.
But maybe this is truly just the story of a stupid, impulsive Superman. Because goddammit, man…
Spoiler
You’re literally fifty feet away from a woman who’s fighting the cave troll just as effectively as you, who clearly knows how to wield a weapon, and you STILL choose to pick up the spear that MAKES YOU WEAK SO YOU WOULDN’T BE USING IT AS EFFECTIVELY AS HER, instead of, you know, tag-teaming her and taking on monster distraction duties so she can give that thing a proper killing blow.
Yeah, i mean i get what youre saying 100 percent, but one thing.
Isnt that more in line with what a more “realistic” superman would be? In snyders movies he was a kid who didnt find out he wasnt even from this planet until his teens. He was terrified as a child, as his powers began to manifest. He was picked on, but could never fight back, because he would kill people. He was scolded for saving a bus full of childrens lives. In probably one of the dumbest scenes in man of steel, he let his father die, because his dad didnt want this planet to have his son. The whole message superman got growing up from his parents, which is what 90 percent of sane parents would do, is please just lay low, be normal, fit in, and dont use your powers. On top of that, there is the subconscious message that humans are not to be trusted. That we’re unworthy of supermans help, and too lost as a species.
So then we get a superman traveling the world trying to find himself. He realizes he cant not help people, so he does occasionally, and then disappears again. Years upon years of this lonliness. You see his frustration come to a peek in washington when that guy was sexually harassing that waiter, and then poured beer on clarks head. Superman destroyed his fucking truck. lol
Like, if i gave anyone of you people in here supermans powers right now, with all your faults still in tact as a person, youre not going to immediately turn into this altruistic, jesus figure that flys around and saves the entire world. Youre not going to come across a den of pedophiles having sex with children in eastern europe somewhere, and not want to fry them with your eye lasers. Obviously snyder cannot write superman to be that extreme, but his point was obviously to humanize him more than the idealistic, altruistic, jesus type hero of the comics.
Superman definitely has many characteristics in the comics that have not been explored in snyders movies. You didnt even see confidence in superman until BvS. In man of steel, intentionally im sure, hes not confident, and basically just flailing around trying to defend earth.
In the comics, Superman has had a lot of history of dealing with the balance of his selflessness, and has done selfish things when lois lane is involved. In jim lees run on superman a while ago, there was a guy who had cancer, and superman wouldnt save him, even though he had the tech too. He didnt feel it was his place to share that with the world, and then be expected to solve all of their problems. Later that guy gets experimented on in a ploy to save his life, on some deadpool type shit, and they turn him into a monster that fights superman. So selfish superman while not always the norm, has been explored, and thats just one small example.
I think if zack put in more moments of superman being superman, it wouldve helped balance out what seemed to be an angry superman. Someone who still seems frustrated that he is being criticized by people who think hes a god who can be everywhere at once, save everyone from everything, but he knows he isnt, and cant. I mean in the total of 2 movies, we only got 4 superman interactions with him saving people. LOL.
There wasnt a scene like the airplane scene from superman returns, which is still fucking awesome as shit to this day. There is no scene like in superman returns where he stops those gunman, and you see a bullet bounce off his eye, and he just smirks. I think snyder definitely missed out on those type of opportunities with man of steel especially, but maybe also a little in bvs too.
But for me, i feel supermans frustrations in the movie. Hes like, so am i suppose to just let you die in the desert. Sorry i didnt know a random village was going to get raided because lex luthor set me up to look bad, and i needed to save you. Sorry i destroyed the city. I mean, i couldve just let them kill all of you. They are my species and my people. lol. Sorry you lost your legs, and rejected thousands of dollars in assistance from bruce wayne. You could be fucking dead. Just like i couldve died trying to save the entire planet.
Yeah, it wouldve been better if wonder woman got the spear, and they fought from there, but superman still somehow ends up dying in an epic fight. There is a lot of inconsistency in that scene. He gets the spear and almost drowns in doing so, but then somehow musters up the strength to fly it into doomsday because lois through it 50 feet from them? lol.
I wouldve liked if wonder woman was fighting with the spear, but superman couldnt help too much because it was weakening him. Then doomsday knocks the shit out of her, batman then weakens him with a kryptonite grenade. Wonder woman then tells clark she can hold doomsday with her lasso if he can kill him with the spear. She does, superman goes in to save the day, and dies in doing so.
I still enjoyed the fight a shit ton, but some simple changes couldve made it better. Maybe budget constraints. BvS has a shit ton of cgi in it, like most snyder movies. I imagine there was probably a different vision for that doomsday fight, but budget got tight.
Alright look that’s a long add monologue that really boils down to “I think it’s fine.”
Here’s the deal though, would Superman in real life be that way? Maybe. The funny thing is that you could make Superman whatever you want him to be because he’s a fictional character, he doesn’t exist, there is no real answer to that question. However you can just as easily justify Superman being Captain Altruism just like he usually is even in the real world, because at the end of the day he isn’t human, and that’s an important detail. Kryptonians are conditioned to fill a certain role since god damn conception, their mentality is molded to what would benefit Krypton the most, that’s why Zod was the fucking lunatic he was. Zod would stop at nothing to do what was best for Krypton, even if it meant the deaths of billions and the destruction of planets to serve that goal. If that’s the case, who’s to say that Superman wouldn’t have those ideals instilled in him regardless of who raised him? How can you say for certainty that Superman wouldn’t do everything in his power to be the ultimate good for Earth, what he would consider his home planet? The message Snyder wants you to take away is that humans are shitty, but that is not objective truth.
Also, if Snyder wants to make him more human and not so much of a Jesus figure HE SHOULD PROBABLY STOP WITH ALL OF THE FUCKING JESUS IMAGERY. BATMAN V SUPERMAN HAS SO MUCH RELIGIOUS SYMBOLISM IT’S LIKE GOING TO FUCKING CHURCH. Superman literally strikes a Jesus on the cross pose like 3 fucking times in this movie and people are praying to and worshipping Superman as if he was a god, which was even kind of the point of the movie. It’s Lex’s entire deal, devils coming from above and all that bullshit, plus his whole backstory about his religious father who beat the shit out of him. If what you’re saying is true and this is supposed to be a realistic more human version of Superman then the writers and Snyder fucked that up so hard that there’s no question to their incompetence.
At the end of the day it’s not about whether this Superman is faithful to the comics because the comics have done so much and have explored so many different versions of Superman. Part of that is because they have had decades to work with the character and needed to delve into him deeper than not at all at some point. The real issue is whether this interpretation of Superman is good or not, and this Superman gets angry and frustrated very easily, isn’t smart or tactical in the slightest, mainly looks out for his own interests, doesn’t seem to care about collateral damage or saving people, he’s massively incompetent which by the time BvS rolls around shouldn’t still be an issue, I find it hard to care or sympathize with this Superman. Like maybe I wouldn’t be the greatest Superman ever had I been given these powers, but I would sure as shit do more than this guy does. Humans have flaws sure, but take away the super from the man and Clark in this universe is still a shitty person, and that’s mistake number 1. He would be an asshole of a human, let alone an alien wrecking ball with the power to destroy worlds.
The thing here’s, Superman freaking wanted to die, he couldn’t live with that huge amount of social pressure so he decided to sacrifice himself in a heroic way rather than continue living in this shitty planet.
HUH? But superman was born of a natural birth, unlike zod. Thats why no specific characteristic rises from him like that. He was given a blank page by his parents. Superman is only alien in physiology, but human and flawed in every other aspect of his existence.
Supermans creation is literally birthed from religious figures. Like literally the creators made him to reflect biblical characters like samson and moses. He was to be this savior at a time where the country was in a depression, and fighting world wars.
Its kinda hard to separate superman from a jesus figure, when thats clearly who he is. If superman were alive right now in the real world, he would be interpreted as such by 100s of millions also. I mean, i guess the imagery pisses people off because its more subtle in the comics, but never once has superman said, i am god or anything in the movies. Everyone else just looks up to him like that. The imagery in the films is zacks artistic expression of the character. Hes allowed to have that.
Even singer kinda did this in superman returns. Telling writers and a director to leave out the jesus imagery in a character birth from religious character, in a world filled with billions of religious people, is kinda weird to say the least.
Its funny you say that. I almost felt that superman wanted to die in this movie too. When he was holding doomsday for the nuke, which he didnt really have to. I thought, this nigga trying to kill himself. lol. I didnt express that idea here, cause i was like eh, whatever.
So what? He was born from a lineage that altered the genetics of their offspring, it doesn’t matter if they didn’t alter him specifically, it doesn’t work that way. If you carry the recessive ginger gene you have that shit forever and your entire bloodline is cursed with that shit, there’s no taking it back. Superman is a Kryptonian regardless of how he was born, it’s in his blood.
My point isn’t about the Jesus imagery. My point is that if you’re trying to make Superman look human you have royally fucked up because this is the most blatant in your face Superman is literally Jesus imagery I have ever seen. And that wouldn’t be a problem if Superman was actually a messiah figure, but he’s a selfish asshole with no apparent regard for anyone but the people who directly benefit him. He’s a shitty human and that makes an even shittier messiah. If you’re going to have all this religious imagery then you need to follow through with it, hell, double down on the Superman is Jesus thing, but you can’t do these things with a Superman that seems almost contempt with his role as a savior.
I mean for fuck’s sake they write it so Batman uses the kryptonite in the dumbest way possible, he doesn’t make bullets, he doesn’t make a suit, he doesn’t make brass knuckles, he makes a fucking lance of longinus, and then they turn the death of superman plotline into Superman martyring himself. It’s so blatant how much they want you to KNOW that Superman is Jesus but go so far out of their way to make him the most unlikable irredeemable idiotic monster. Maybe this is just Snyder’s commentary on religion. Maybe he’s throwing in comments about how stupid messiah figures are. Either way, this is poor form for a Superman interpretation.
But thats literally not how the movie made it. You cant change the movies plot to fit your belief. They purposefully had kal el with a natural birth to avoid all that other shit. Kryptonians arent naturally predators who overtake worlds, and are soldiers. lol. COME ON SON
But jesus has selfish moments, and was essentially a superhuman amongst men, who even embraced what normal men did not. Samson was a bad guy who god essentially used for his purposes. Not just a bad guy, but the strongest bad guy. AGAIN, superman is based off of religious characters, and their stories are being told in a different version.
You cant be mad at a director for using their artistic expression in telling a story about a character who was LITERALLY created from jewish religious imagery, and has been portrayed as a messiah figure in comics more times than i can count.
The most effective use of kryptonite was not making a spear, but definitely not making a suit or brass knuckles. That is some comic level stuidity. Short of the spear, bruce used kryptonite in the most effective way possible, gas grenades. The spear is a plot point, and also religious imagery.
The spear of destiny for those that dont know, is what i think snyder was going for. You havent heard that anywhere. Its an exclusive here. lol. The spear of destiny is what some say was used to kill jesus. Instead, this messiah figure, superman, used it to kill his opposite. His devil. His greatest enemy so far.
**The problem is, snyder is making a movie to be dissected in years to come. People wanted a comic movie that they dont have to use their brain for, but can see the comic they just illegally downloaded come to life. Like, i literally just realized that the kryptonite spear, with all the jesus imagery involved in these two movies, was to be the spear of destiny. That thing constantine was dealing with in his movie a while ago. lol. Im sorry, i have to respect the good, and acknowledge the bad. Its not all bad. Snyder and writers have set up this character to be how it is. It might not be peoples ideal about superman and batman, but its not a bad interpretation.
Its just not one book rolled into a movie. Its a few comics, some religious shit, and the psychology of humans dealing with a messiah figure rolled into one movie. **
They never intended for Supes to be a religious figure, no, but the inspiration for his origin was clearly the story of Moses. They’ve said as much on that point.
Jimmy over here celebrating all these silly ideas that were executed poorly, if at all…
Gonna need proof that they themselves said it. All they’ve ever said on the space thing was "We thought it was a good idea."
Everyone else says it’s influenced by Moses/Jesus, but I’ve never heard, or read anything with Jerry and/or Joe saying they did it because they were influenced by Moses.
You might have missed my post, but yes he was. Superman was based off of moses and samson by two jewish guys in the 30s.lol. He was a messiah figure in a time of war and the great depression in america. He was this all mighty white, dark haired hero to come save the day. Im surprised they didnt make him born out of clay too. lol
In comics over the years, he has dealt with the messiah role. He has dealt with being able to save mankind, but chose not to. He has dealt with being all powerful, while still trying to be regular, in a regular relationship. He has dealt with in his regular form, being selfless, but also selfish.
I mean, nothing is new to superman at this point. Its just how fans want him to be interpreted. You cant just 86 pre new 52 superman cause reasons. You can just 86 new 52 superman cause reasons. You can just say fuck silver age superman cause reasons. As a director that is.
You want to create something for everyone in some way. You dont wanna just make a movie for new 52 fans, or silver age fans, or whatever. Snyder put a lot of versions of superman in one movie, mixed with other shit.
I’ll see what I can dig up, but I’m sure they said Moses was an influencing factor in the origin story, but never did they intend for Supes to be seen as some religious allegory… That’s some shit these modern-day hack writers came up with to justify lazily tossing in some Christian overtones where there were none before.
