Gief has one startup frame on his lariat, so he can probably beat safejumps too. According to the frame data thread, assuming I read it right.
Given I was listing ST infos, we’ll run with ST rankings:
My point was not that Zangief is or is not a bad matchup vs. Rog in ST. (though you, Gunze, and Tsuji all indicate it is NOT a bad matchup for Boxer)
My point was that having bad matchups vs. bad characters isn’t generally that much of a problem in tournament play.
… course it all depends on the tournament format and details.
What makes you so sure he’s not broken?
I personally don’t know one way or the other.
But I have a hard time believing you’ve decisively figured it out.
Yeah, well F* baseball and F* the Yankees. (and 2x F* the Red Sox, though for different reasons)
I want balanced competition in my games.
I want to see good matchups and variety in the high level play matchups.
Call me selfish, but that’s what I want.
If YOU want broken/joke gameplay, then you should be happy that almost all games these days are being designed with that in mind.
Leave me my HDR, counterstrike, aoe, axis&allies, etc. (I don’t actually play the 2nd and 3rd, but I heard good things and appreciate them)
So then you feel boxer is not broken enough in HDR then?
I have no idea if he is broken.
He seems very good, but I don’t know what that ultimately means.
Give it 5-10 years of playing and we’ll see how many people are playing him at the high end…
As Kuroppi said, we don’t have enough dedicated Boxer players spending time online stomping faces.
I think afro could do it, and I also think afro would one of the best people to ask (if he’s an objective guy) on what Boxer’s power level is.
I am citing HDR as a game that is trying at a design level to achieve more balance.
So you believe that HDR boxer is that different than ST boxer? That we can’t also use ST data?
I’m sure Afro would probably guess in the range of just about over nine thousand??
ROFL^ 
Yeah damn right bring ST Boxer back, HDR Boxer is too broken:bluu:
Boxer, although not as good as his vanilla counterpart, is still very powerful but nowhere near broken. He is a hard character to fight due to his high damage output and quickness, but if you know the matchup against him, he can be dealt with. It’s just that you can’t make too many mistakes against a good Boxer, or he will eat you up(Tyson-Holyfield status lol, just kidding) =)
Well there you have it! You’re not gonna get a better Rog than Afro to weigh in on the matter. Close thread now!
There are differences.
As far as it being “that” different, I think it’s relative to what’s being discussed.
In ST his two worst matchups were Chun Li and Dhalsim. (correct me if I’m wrong)
Chun Li, Boxer, and Dhalsim all seem to have been nerfed in HDR, how did that affect the matchups?
Dhalsim v Balrog
Orig chart: 5-5
Sweet Poison: 4-6
studtrooper: 5-5 to 6-4
1hitparry: 5-5
blitzfu: 6-4
Stay at 5-5
Balrog v Chun
Orig chart (skankin garbage): 5-5
MiloDC: 6-4
2010-02-05 new rating: 5.5-4.5
Are those new numbers for HDR legit?
Does HDR Boxer’s matchup numbers vs. other characters slip?
Potentially, we’re looking at Boxer as a character with no bad matchups.
I expect that would be amazingly powerful.
Let’s compare it to a couple other HDR characters that look like they might be contenders for “best character”:
Ryu
Claw
Ryu is a character we know wasn’t nerfed at all.
HDR is ST Ryu + Fake Fireball.
And Ryu has been tearing it up in some of the HDR tourneys.
Ryu’s toughest matchups in ST were:
Zangief
Dhalsim
Boxer
Claw
Let’s see how his game has improved in those matchups.
Ryu v Zangief
Orig chart: 5-5
Kuroppi: 6-4
Zero1_: 6-4
SteveTren: 6-4
Dhalsim v Ryu
Orig chart: 6-4
Sweet Poison: 5-5
blitzfu: 6-4
Stay at 6-4
Ryu v Vega
Orig chart: 4-6
SteveTren: 4-6
Ganelon: 4-6
blitzfu: 3-7
Ryu v Boxer
Consensus matchup chart: 4.5-5.5
Are these numbers accurate for Ryu?
Then we have Claw.
Who had some major tweaking.
His worst matchup in ST was Boxer, how is he now?
Claw v Boxer
Consensus matchup chart: 4.5-5.5
And it looks like certain players feel Claw has slipped below .500 in at least 2 of his other matchups:
Claw v Honda
Consensus matchup chart: 4-5
M.Bison v Vega
Orig chart: 6-4
blitzfu: 6-4
Are those legit?
Demavrick has said he thinks Claw beats Dictator.
I get my A** kicked by certain Claw players.
What Dictator players are giving Claw players such a hard time? yuh vega dj?
Claw v Honda in ST was ranked all over the place, to be fair. I’ve heard it described as 7-3 in both directions, and as 5-5 too. I gave Honda a 6-4 advantage in ST and I still do in HD Remix - in my view, the power level of that matchup hasn’t really changed, even though the dynamic is different (the ST matchup is more defined by all-or-nothing loops, from walldives and ochios).
It also seems that the re-ranking of Ryu v Zangief is less a function of ST -> HD Remix and more a function of the same players changing their opinions of the matchup over time (Damdai comes to mind).
I think Dictator has only a very slight advantage vs Claw, it’s pretty close to even IMO. I don’t use decimals, so my 6-4 Dictator rating is probably the same as a 55/45 rating. I think Dictator, out of all the other characters except for maybe Honda, can go toe to toe with Claw vs his Wall Dives and footsies on the ground. And the new DR helps him escape meaty Rolling Claws and other non-Wall Dive meaties, where in ST he was locked down by more attacks on wakeup.
We need more Dictator player opinions! = J I’d like to know what Jiggly and Mack give this matchup.
Did damdai rate Zangief with the advantage? I’m not trying to speak for him, but I’m pretty sure he gives Ryu the advantage.
In this game, I think Balrog is a little bit more manageable than in Super Turbo. Even with the nerfs though, he’s still in the top 3 characters (IMO) which just shows you how silly he was in Super Turbo. I also think the same could be said for Vega. As far as the Bison VS Vega matchup, its close but I still think Vega has the advantage. If you’re quick enough with the repeated wall dives, its not that hard to catch Bison facing the wrong way trying to attack.
Echo…
There’s a fine line between bad matchups and bad play.
lol, if you see these guys online,
123corbscrublo or afrolegends
play against their balrogs using guile
case closed.
Confusing skill difference with a bad matchup.
hahaaha NOT, I’ve seen the rated xbl guile players domolished by afro legends balrog, then again perhaps ur right, u tried using balrog against me last time we played and I smashed you, I also smashed ur vega too and ur ryu…so perhaps ur right : )
Let’s see if you will go the same route Exposedd went.
1v1 first to 10 ?