I am a computer games design student and the title is the topic I will be covering in my dissertation.
Now I read the forums alot but never post, hence this is a new account, but I thought you guys in the community might be able to give me some help and advice.
Now everyone frequently discusses tier listing and what not and balancing fighters is getting harder now with more additions added to games to keep them fresh and competitive in the market. This is quite evident from expansions like VF5:R and T6:BR, BlazBlue:CS etc. being released to fix issues, aswell as make a bit more money and throw in some extra content.
Which is one part I’m stuck on researching for my dissertation is that its hard to find how developers balance fighters, bringing in new characters is always going to affect the whole roster, what methods do they use to balance the characters? It’s obviously going to involve very very heavy playtesting throughout the whole design process, but aside from that, do they use any other techniques? or is it trial and error over and over?
If anyone has an expertise in this area and could help me that would be great and any others suggestions would be welcome also, thanks.
there’s a thread you should read if you can find it. I can’t remember the name of it, something along the lines of video game design or some shit? wish I could remember it.
Anyway, megaultrasuper wrote a very lengthy post about some of what you’re asking and there were other very intelligent posts in there as well. You’ll undoubtedly get responses to this though and I’m sure 90% of it will be trash.
you can send megaultrasuper a private message. His post sounded like he’s programmed video games before.
I’m not an expert but with my experience with many fighters. I think the first thing that must be address that.
Is to present a system that provides option to each player of characteristics.
In simple terms I think you need had mechanics that don’t discriminate or forces a general play style. But apply an effective balance of passive and aggressive action. Or in fighter game terms Both aggressive and defensive.
As far as additional mechanics, they must be offer with a trade of sort.
thanks shoultzula i shall pm him, and keo-bas i know what you mean, it is something that all gamers with a vast interest in fighters know about and is something i have spoke about in my research notes
After the research phase which im currently going through, im going to use mugen/fighter factory to create some characters and balance them for my dissertation, as i have to show what ive learned through research and put it into practice, thats briefly the aim in a nutshell and i’m not really familiar with it so ive given myself alot to do, but briefly scouting the internet out for company methods have brought little to no results and it seems there isnt much on the topic.
I’m not fully familiar with mugen but most mugen I came across wasn’t favorable to me. Most seem to be rush fest intended. But those could be just apply improperly. Regardless I wish you luck.
Another thing to consider is the theme. You can present a very good game but if it fails to present it identity as appealing you can very much well failed the same way as making a poorly mechanic game.
yeah well most mugens are just crammed with fighters from every game imaginable and are extremely unbalanced, but thats not my aim, nor is it to make it aesthetically appealing (obviously for a finished product it would need to be) but for the purpose of my dissertation, I am looking only at the balancing gameplay aspect, I’m using mugen as its freeware and the only thing i know of at the moment that can allow me to create fighters and put them in a 2d fighting environment, ready to playtest and balance
I understand that. Have you any base to work under besides your research of development. Is their not a game that had inspire in some form that was positive than negative?
If you have found such game I recommend reference it but to a minimal of 30 to 25%. Its meant to only be base and to developed into something new.
Well as such its going to be simplistic, along the lines of Virtua Fighter / Street Fighter 2 (and what i mean by that is no juggles or mad combos, probably no supers etc just a simple moveset (hadoken, shoryuken, hurricane kick) that kind of thing, along with different kinds of standard punches/kicks)
More on topic however, I kind of need to find methods of balancing the characters before i think of themes or what not, as i have nothing to go on, on an academic or big time company developer level, I’m just guessing that its thorough testing, which is highly likely, but still, I need research material that complements what I’m creating otherwise it has no credibility.
Sound difficulty but your at least starting in the right direction and some example to base off is good.
I can understand character trait balance but I feel the system should be more of focus, after all a good system can make any character be in check if apply accordingly
no doubt a sturdy system/engine needs to be in place but at the end of the day nerfs and buffs are to do with individual characters and thats what im looking at, the only system i really have a choice to use is mugen so ill have to cope with what ever limitations there is, but more likely the limitations will be my program knowledge more than the program itself.
which leads me to something ive been thinking, which is whether games companies do get high level players to play their games, because at the end of the day, they are the ones that will play the game the longest/most, anyhow im still finding it hard to find info on the subject
Well then you need to start with some organization of character and their traits and work to maintain them in such a order for example.
lets say you categorize character traits with attribute as Power, Speed, Defense, and to further dynamic this is to rate the attributes in numbers. With the highest being a number like 9 with the lowest being 0. I personally recommend working with odds.
I will list as such
Character: Letter
Attributes
P-Power
S-Speed
D-Defense
0-9 attribute ratio
character A
attributes
P-6
S-4
D-2
Character A who developed to be the lead character as well be basic, I give this character basic acceptable attributes. I prefer to use even ratio with this character since the characters not suppose to have inherent flaws or perks. Thus achieving my personal view of balance
Character B
attributes
P-2
S-f
D-6
Character b is another character who intended to be balance and offset with character A advantages to appeal to player who likes balance but prefer another favorable attribute than character A’s.
Character c can go in this same pattern with switching attributes just like Character A and B. After those character then its bets to start handling other character with bigger range with odd numbers, With attributes like Power being level 9 and other being 1 or 0.
Its all about fiddling with number in my opinion. But the number are delicate and needs to be handle with delicate care to not make such over powering variables are present.
The number being handle properly can have a character who may have gimmicks that are consider strong advantages be offset by attribute comparing, though a system safe guard wouldn’t hurt either is recommended too.
Thanks for the replies, yeah this is the sort of basis i was going to follow, simple attributes, balancing them the best possible before moving onto adding another component, thoroughly testing, then moving on again to the next addition.
I wonder whether its worth emailing some companys to ask about how characters are balanced, but it looks like the answer is heavy testing tbh.
Every addition adds more imbalance, say if character A was bigger, he would be expected to have a larger hit box, this is the kind of problem im having, every little thing added just seems to mutliply the difficulty in balancing, which is why im trying to research methods used by companys
the quote below isn’t the only thing you should read from the page, but I found it particularly important.
For every single thing, think in terms of rock, paper, scissors. the character stats, the moves, the jumps, the supers; the different things compared to each other; everything.
be good at problem solving. problem solving is your best friend. for instance, say the character with the big hitboxes isn’t that fun to play because he’s so easy to hit. for one, help make him harder to hit (ex. speed up his attacks, give him more power, move his hitboxes around as he attacks, give him a special move that changes his distance from the opponent or vice versa, etc.). For two, spice him up a bit… give him some truly unique advantages for instance. IMO, if you are making these chars from scratch, then you need to think about their special moves and sutff later. create those just to solve the char’s problems.
when it comes to buffing and nerfing, always consider buffing first; nerf first only if it’s perfect or near perfection. for instance, say a char has overpowered stats. instead of lowering his stats, raise the stats of every char in the game. if that won’t affect the problem (ex. say that there is a char that does % damage based on his strength stat. his strength is 100, so he’ll always do 100% damage, even if the opponent has infinite HP), nerf first.
also, along the same lines of buffing and nerfing, be familiar with HOW to nerf and buff. augment, supplement, and complement.
Augment: to make larger; enlarge in size, number, strength, or extent; increase. (ex. augment Ryu’s hadouken by making it hit harder, move faster, stun easier, etc.) Supplement: something added to complete a thing, supply a deficiency, or reinforce or extend a whole. (ex. supplement Bison’s weakness to aerials by giving him that high priority aerial punch; supplement this char’s ability to fight long range by giving him a gun) Complement: something that fills up, completes, or makes perfect (ex. in HDR Remix, Honda’s LP headbutt was complemented with the ability to dissolve fireballs without taking damage)
i guess another question would be, what people consider the most balanced fighter ever? as I havent played quite a few fighters on the market still so i cant really be a judge, just interested to know what others think
The worst character in VF4:EVO, Goh, won the first Super Battler Opera and OCV’d a few teams of top players on the way. No other game approaches that level balance where almost every character has a legitimate chance of winning a tournament.
I hate to be noisy, but has someone who’s also interested in making a fighter, I would be interested in reading everything you get from the guy if it’s okay with you.
edit:
Mr. Obvious: So, learning how Sega balanced VF (5R?) is a very good place to start? That said, you wouldn’t happened to know how/where to go to find how Sega goes about balancing VF, would you?
Also, I do believe that GGAC is another example of a highly balanced game where the low-tier characters have won SBOs. No idea how Aksys balanced the game though.
Edit #2
@omfg - Small point of clarification, when you say that everything related to balancing should be thought of in terms of RPS, are you excluding the global holy grail of all match-ups period being 5-5? /nitpicking
Guilty Gear XX Accent Core is well balanced (not perfect, but what game is?), even the low tier chars are tournament viable
consider that it took like 4 revisions to get there, and still you have some matchups that are desfavorable, i believe that they recolect the data of tournaments and the likes, consult top players, and see what are the weakness of the low tier characters and analize what changes need to be done, but who knows
and is Arcsys (Arc System Works), Aksys is the american publisher
to expand something of what keo said, ou should consider that part of the balance is the risk reward ratio, also from the character design view, you need to evaluate what is the gameplan that you as a designer want that the character will have, is he gona be a mixup oriented, how is he gonna use at his advantage the universal mechanics of the game, how the characters move are gonna link/ chain between them, how his advantages/disadvantages work against other characters, how does the char compensate his weakness, and how does work his strong points in the gameplan that you have in mind
thats a very interesting note, something i can add in my research for sure thanks, also i thought GG was a well balanced game aswell, interesting to know that low tiers were viable i wasnt aware that it was ‘that’ balanced.
but yeah like you guys say, you can never get a perfect balance, nothing can ever be perfect, thanks for the advise aswell hecatom.
and shezmu i have sent him a pm, i’ll let you know if i get a reply
i guess if you guys are interested in how i’m getting along with this dissertation I can let you know, and any other additional information would be great, anything about fighting game mechanics or tournament/high level related information will help bolster my research material, as its hard to find any first hand source material from companys, most of my research is based off forums, community websites and pro players thoughts so yeah. thanks a bunch for youre help guys
also im looking at starting with balancing 3 characters, punch/kick/grappler or possibly closerange/allrounder/longrange style, not sure what to pick, not sure what would be easier either, any thoughts?
