in a game where both lows or overheads lead to massive damage?
only to get your back cornered where they can straight jump tatsu
obviously we’re talking about decent players
not spambots
agreed
but they should have a downside for the arc/range/crossup
that, in my opinion, should be frame disadvantage (-1/-2 should do) which they currently don’t have
shotos are 3 frames freaks, giving them advantages here and there is just a bad choice
Air special moves shouldn’t get such special treatment, first off. On hit, let them be combo-able, but they shouldn’t be so safe or exploitable on block – it just leads to even better players spamming them.
Secondly… jumping back is terrible on all accounts. Jumping surrenders a lot of mobility and offensive/defensive options and should be avoided unless you have a real gameplay outside of running away.
I think you misunderstood/misread my statements earlier. I was stating what I thought the person in question was doing in reaction to air Tatsus.
Air specials being advantageous wouldn’t be a problem if they could be consistently AA’d if spaced/timed poorly imo.
On that note, I’d actually love to see a character with ONLY aerial specials…
/Mango
Giving air tatsus frame disadvantage on block would make them useless.
I kinda agree with the others that a better idea would be to make them easier to AA… Or at least give other characters anti air options that work against it. 
This is true… If half of the AA options didn’t have to be used nigh on perfectly or psychically early air tatsu wouldn’t be such a big deal…
Air tatsus are incredibly easy to anti air, you just have to react quickly
you still have 3 kicks and 3 punches to use for air/air/ground war
a -1/-2 on block would just make them similar to a lot of other specials
not unsafe (grabs aside) but not +10 advantage madness with comboability on hit
“A lot of other specials” don’t require you to commit to a jump.
Thing is, blocking air tatsus is easy. If you make it -1 or -2 on block, there’d be no incentive at all to use it because you’d essentially be surrendering offensive momentum.
I don’t believe making moves easier to punish or disadvantageous on block is the way to go. It promotes passive, boring and turtley play. Plus it makes autoblock that much more effective.
no incentive in a special that would still mantain arc, speed and comboability on hit?
for being turned into a -1 on block against an half cast with 4 frame pokes?
really?
there’s no risk reward situation atm
you may decide to use normals with +4/+5/+8 advor a special that is +9/+10/+17 (ken’s in the example)
The thing is, air tatsus are easy to block if that’s all the defender is trying to do. Ideally however, the defender should be anti-airing, because passively blocking opens you up to follow-up pressure from the aggressor. Giving tatsus frame disadvantage on hit would make them too easy to defend against.
I think the best solution is still to give characters that need it working AA options against tatsus. As I said in my previous post (parts of which you conveniently ignored), I don’t believe making moves easier to punish or disadvantageous on block is the way to go. It promotes passive, boring and turtley play. IMO you should NOT be rewarded for passive defense (ie: blocking something that’s already easy to block). You should be rewarded for actively countering it, hence why I’d prefer if everyone had working anti-air options. By jumping in, you take the risk that your opponent anti airs you, but if he reacts too slowly and is forced to block it, you get a pressure opportunity. If he messes up his AA or blocks incorrectly, you get a combo or a knockdown.
How is removing the reward for forcing your opponent to block supposed to help?
Sorry, I’m having trouble understanding this part. I’m from Asia and English isn’t my native language.
Anyway, making air tatsus a fixed -1 or -2 on block wouldn’t be feasible with the current engine, unless heavy modifications are made. They’re air moves, so the frame advantage/disadvantage kind of depends on how early or late in the jump arc it hits. Capcom can’t make it -1 if blocked late without making it unsafe if it hit earlier. If they made it -1 on an early hit, it would still be at + frames if it hit late.
Nail on the head. I noticed this yesterday while playing some new people at weeklies. The issue this game has is that defensive options are very very strong and it encourages you to turtle.
It’s an issue I’ve been working to get over – the game system just kind of invites you to be passive and jump ins against characters with no anti-airs are the most passively aggressive option you end up with (Because they have no options against you except blocking).
I honestly thing if this game had running, hops, while standing moves like in Tekken it’d build a lot of hype. I’d prefer if characters were encouraged to run head to head into each other and clash over the awkward SF air game.
Meterless yes, however if you’ve got the meter you can Cross Cancel. This is what I meant in the other thread about “breaking in the game”. Once you think you’ve learned the game mechanics, you find out there is more. Even if your character doesn’t have a viable AA you can block the first hit of the air attack and immediately Cross Cancel. Granted it does require good timing.
Depends on the character, though. Cross Canceling Air Tatsu can go any number of ways depending on what move the character’s alpha counter is based on.
Frankly, I wish we could parry or Switch counter (have your second character come in with a attack) instead of the way alpha counters work, but yeah, you’re right – there are a lot of tools people are letting fall by the wayside.
I’ve been messing around with Kazuya and thought he had nothing, but actually you can just mist step the moment you see Ken in the air. You will almost always cross too far under for the tatsu to hit, especially since you can mash mist step to gaurantee you go all the way across to the other side of him. It also gives you certainty on which side to block.
Mist step mashing aside though, for me the problem is blocking the air tatsus in the first place. If I manage to block it I’m usually not too worried about what happens next so I wouldn’t bother with a cross cancel. The hard part is knowing which side he’s going to hit you on. Especially if he has that 20% speed boost or god forbid a 40% speed boost which although I think is awesome, makes Ken an absolute monster. Empty jump into cr.LK is impossible to block when Ken falls 40% faster. I long for dive kick spam in that situation. It’s hard enough when he falls 20% faster. Thankfully it only lasts 10 seconds so it’s only good for 1 or 2 mix ups into 1 combo.
I completely agree. The ambiguousness of jumps in this game is really frustrating.
This. Whenever I use aerial tatsus even I don’t know where it’s going to land half the time it’s that bloody ambiguous.
Holy lord, I’m tired of hearing about air tatsus. Learn your zones! Air tatsu can only be used at a specific range. If you, like most players, end up staying in that range then you shouldn’t expect a harvest. Having to block a move when it’s done at the right range does not promote turtling; giving each character an anti-air that hits directly above their head will promote turtling because you won’t be able to air tatsu. Taking away a shoto’s only good way in is going to promote turtling.
Space control does help, but air tatsu after a knock down is definitely a thing.
Meanwhile, Air tatsu is -Ken’s- way in. Ryu and Akuma both have significantly more options. Ken’s losing air tatsu would be bad, but he shouldn’t be relying on ONE thing to open people up. No character should.
Probably sound advice but easier said than done. I played SF4 for years and by the end I was still getting hit with cross up tatsus, especially on my wake up. Also as a Ken player I relied heavily on that tactic myself.
I think it’s an RPS situation that you should just try to avoid getting yourself into, so I basically agree. There’s no gauranteed way to deal with air tatsus if they’re coming from a 50/50 range, you just have to try to read the opponent.