Balance changes - What's really needed for Abel?

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter x Tekken
1

Since the board is in fact dead as mentioned by another member, here’s an attempt to revive it for the 3 people still reading. I didn’t see much or any discussion really for what tweaks Abel could use in the eventual (we can hope it comes out before November) balance patch we keep hearing about.

For me, the biggest and most annoying design flaw of Abel is step kick being -1 on block. What the hell was Capcom thinking? Abel’s fastest normal is cl.lp and cl.fp at 4 frames but you’re already at -1 even if you do press a button, and these aren’t even good buttons to press most of the time. cl.lp whiffs on a lot of crouchers and cl.fp isn’t safe, forcing you to cancel into something unsafe (CoD, roll, wheel kick and shoulder are all unsafe) or burn a meter to tag out to avoid an easy punish.

Jab happy characters (especially those with the 3f jabs) will always get their hit in before you do, meaning you have two reasonable options against characters with decent jabs (a ton of the cast has at least 4f jabs): block on your own pressure tool or burn a bar on EX Tornado. If you have no meter when step kicking, the opponent has virtually no disadvantage on just mashing jab since at worst they’ll just trade with your fierce to reset the situation and at best they get a jabjabjab xx whatever combo. Step kick should fundamentally be even on block since it’s supposed to be a pressure tool leading to mixups. Otherwise, they could perhaps increase Abel’s crappy cr.lp and cr.lk to 4f since at 5f currently, it’s very scary to pressure a lot of the cast which is ironic from a rushdown character.

What else do you guys feel he needs?

2

I think rolls should be a little, well, a bit more like sf4. I mean you can do cr.mk anti-air into marseilles roll, and be at a disadvantage!? I mean come on, that’s one way Abel sets up his mixup, and you’re forced to use lk roll to avoid getting mashed out by something. Considering that it’s a lot harder to set up mixups with him in this game, I feel that’s a little tweak he could use.

Personally I don’t have issues with using step kick, but I suppose the frames dont lie. I think normal throw, TT, and st.hp cancels are your best bet after step kick, but they should change it to how it is in sf4. In general step kick feels a little sucky, like slow and maybe less range, hmm.

I still feel Abel has a lot of top stuff though

3

All those options, with the exception of maybe s.FP, gets stuffed by simple jabs. Throws start up slower than molasses at 7f, non-EX Tornado will get hit and as I said, you have to cancel s.FP into something to avoid getting punished and all the stuff he can cancel into aren’t safe. Basically, if you’re meterless, the opponent really has no worries whatsoever about what you can do afterwards and just jabjabjab for safety, rendering step kick pretty useless against a smart player. I feel the best things Abel has for him is the amazing range on s.LK and the very strong tag cancel punishes he can do from a step kick into s.FP.

And yeah, the roll should at least be faster to compensate for his slow-ass dash. Abel went from mixup machine to more of a footsie based rushdown character. His damage is fine, it’s just that he must’ve gained 30 extra pounds or something because everything of his in this game is so slow.

4

Haha i know he does feel soooo slow! Too much French beef. I think they’ve tried to over compensate with him, yeah great tag partner, great combo potential, lets make him slow and totally change how he plays! Yay…

I think you’re right, footsies are the way to go. If you’re good with your spacing then step kick can still cause mayhem, and if you mess up and it’s blocked well then thats too bad. On hit though its pretty amazing. Also I think it’s okay to take risks with it, in quick fire situations people get scared and they see stepkick and think JUMP, which plays to your advantage. St.fp can also work as a frametrap here can it not? Can’t believe st.fp is unsafe though, that’s dumb. They need to change that. It’s one of his most important moves in this game, why would they do that :confused:

The positives though are his alpha counter his awesome, his overhead is good, great tag combos, good damage. The lack of mixup game is the big downfall for me. You can still do stuff though off of like sweep, if the opponent doesn’t forward roll. You can also do some pretty amazing air resets too, but also come down to the opponent doing quick getups or not, but Abel also has the ability of screwing up roll directions by switching sides, which is really good.

5

Flight mode.

6

Only if he can cancel flight into his happy birthday arms and grab you.

7

They also need to widen the hitbox on s.FP for the first punch, that was a really good anti-air of his until this game where every Ryu’s j.RH breaks your hand just for trying. Other minor gripes include jab CoD being -5 on block and almost everything about wheel kick. CoD being -5 is a little harsh, -4 is fair I’d say. As for wheel kick, it’s so damn slow and risky that I don’t even think of using it on scrubs. Just for lk wheel kick, being -2 on hit and -7 on block doesn’t really give a lot of reasons to use it. It should do like 200 damage if it lands.

8

Personally, I think Abel is a solid character in this game. My only gripes would be to give Step Kick its SF4 frames and hitbox, fix close s.hp as an AA and give all version of TT, except EX, 10 more damage. I mean there are other things to ask for but I these would be the necessities.

9

Damage. I’ve been trying to get back into the game and wanted to play Abel since he’s a character I love but I’ve always been awful with him. I’ve finally gotten decent at setups and controlling space but even when I do well, I feel like I’m not hitting them nearly hard enough.

For Abel to do decent damage you have to do fairly complex combos, either rolls into juggles, abusing wall bounce, or both. That would be fine, except Abel isn’t really a combo character - he’s a striker/grappler who has some cool combo options. In my opinion his throws should be buffed for damage - Tornado throw and falling sky especially. If people were afraid of tornado throw the way they are afraid of SPD or northern lights suplex, abel would start to feel better to me. People would respect his grab and his step kick would become more important if they’re staying out. As it is, with Abel’s low(ish) damage, bad/slow buttons, lousy reversals and only decent throw options, there’s really no reason not to just stand in his face and jab.

Okay, that all said, I still think he’s super fun. Just wish he hit harder.

10

I’m playing Abel for a bit for my “In the Lab” series, and from my short play with him so far, the one thing that I think could really help him, if nothing else is done, is to increase the blockstun on his step kick by a few frames. That alone could really improve him in my opinion. I mean, he has a set-up off of all of his moves that cause a hard knockdown (except for his sweep), and for each of his moves (falling sky, change of direction, Tornado Throw and EX Tornado Throw), if you do a LK roll as soon as you can, you’ll be in step kick range whether the opponent rolls or not. This is rendered somewhat pointless by the fact that step kick is -1 on block, especially if you don’t have meter.

I hope that they do buff the step kick. I think that’s all he really needs, though a buff to the damage on his command throws would be nice. As it stands I spend most of my time getting enough meter so I can Step Kick and actually be safe, either by doing EX Tornado Throw or going into his standing FP xx Tag Cancel.

11

Yeah, Tornado Throw in this game is pretty ass compared to SF4. Losing throw invulnerability on normal TT’s coupled with slow start-up speed really hinders its application. I agree that buffing the damage accordingly will compensate somewhat, though tacking on +10 for all strengths may not be too noticeable of a buff. +20, though highly unlikely, would actually make TT scary again.

With a -1F step kick, unsafe s.FP that doesn’t anti-air anymore, weak command grabs and recovery rolling for the opponent, Abel is now footsie-based rather than heavily mixup-based. I agree that the least they can do is buff some of his damage because his meterless combos really don’t hurt that much (especially considering this is a game with recoverable life). His combos off of EX-shoulder are decent and step kick --> s.FP tag cancels are great, but you always need at least one bar.

If they can buff his combo enders (Change of Direction and Falling Sky), I think that’ll do a decent job of bringing his damage on-par with other characters.

12

Abel does not need step kick being zero or plus on block. Why should a grappler that has high health, good moves overall and a command throw (which is huge in this game considering that everyone’s throw has no range) need free ways to get in for free high/low and throw mixups? If he hits with his overhead x launcher that could be 500+ damage right there. If he hits with cr lk it could also be 500+ damage. If he hits with step kick he could do 500+ damage.

You know how many characters are -4 or higher after using a normal and dash cancel? Most of the cast. They could be punished by mashed jabs easily. At least Abel is safe. He could do things like step kick x dash and if its blocked he could use cross assault to force a mixup on the opponent or EX tornado throw.

Having said this I do agree that Abel needs some buffs.

I feel that what he needs is better tag properties on wheel kick and slight damage buffs here and there.

  1. Wheel kick cause float or groundbounce on airborne opponents would make it excellent for tag canceling and be a nice buff overall.

  2. Roll should be like how it was in SF4. That is true.

  3. Step kick should do 80 damage on airborne opponents. There is no reason for it to do 60 damage on airborne opponents.

  4. EX falling sky should do 200 damage.

13

Well…I suppose you’re right. I guess I’m just thinking in terms of his SF4 counterpart, where his Step Kick was really good and very important for him (at least from my understanding) since it allowed him to get in and start mixing you up like crazy. I wondered why they made it worse here…but now it makes more sense why that’s the case.

14

Well at least he got one thing for SFxT 2013:

  • Shoulder Charge now wallbounces on CH

So unless they fix something or make it faster, I dont see how you can use it, because honestly, regular Tackle is “caca”

15

I want super armor on tackle. It’d be interesting. Speeding up rolls would be nice too.

16

:mk: :hk: tackles have armor properties now… Go read again to verify for yourself…
This is HUGE imo, with armor Abel will not be able to charge** THROUGH** fireballs from far away!
Should be pretty nice…

Close :hp: and crouching :hp: got hitbox make overs… thank god, close HP was a shell of its former self, now that it can anti air more reliably maybe it could then lead to more canceling into falling sky as well…

I would have liked giving his falling sky crush frames like Marduk’s… seeing as how falling sky doesn’t do obscene amounts of damage and seeing that Abel doesn’t really good 50/50 oki, I don’t think it could hurt…

Tackles and Ultra changing to kicks is a great FIX
I’m not sure whose bright idea it was to make its input with punches int he first place but oh well…

Alpha counter is now tackle instead of Roll…
Good!
The roll alpha counter only worked for me if the move countered was one that was relatively long… against jabs or some quick attack it was virtually useless…
If it turns out that the tackle we get from alpha counters is FAST and COULD counter things like pokes and whatnott… this might end up being a great great great buff…

Tornado throws get their immunity back
I don’t know who’s stupid idea it was to take that away in the first place but I’m glad it’s back
Damage boost up to SF4 levels is good too…

I’m upset that nothing was said about his step kick…
If it’s still -1 on block then… fuck…

QUESTION
Can anybody make sense to the change made to axe kick
it says that if it connects against an airborne opponent it will become, “bound damage” what does this mean exactly?

Well i’m pretty happy
At the moment the leaving step kick to -1 and leaving command grabs 6 frames still bugs me…
but everything else is pretty nice I’m satisfied so far
and i’m exciting that there may be more changes to find out once the patch comes out

How are you guys feeling about this so far?

17

I believe when they say “bound damage,” they mean that it causes a ground bounce now. Which should be interesting when it comes to combos…I wonder what possibilities that opens up?

I’m pretty happy with the changes. I’m still annoyed at -1 step kick, but hey, they buffed his damage overall. That’s good enough for me. :smiley:

18

• Command change - Shoulder Tackle changed from (charge, forward+P) to (charge, forward+K) (Great addition for the players that kept getting shoulders when linking into CoD. ***Now they have to be careful about not screwing up their roll motions, lol.***)

  • Breathless changed from (charge, forward+PPP) to (charge, forward+KKK)

• Guard cancel - Marseilles Roll changed to Shoulder Tackle ***(As mentioned already, it’s very helpful for Abel to have a reasonably universal alpha counter. The roll counter could only punish certain moves but not things like Cammy jabbing.***)

  • Attack Startup 8F, Damage 120

• Close HP - Hit box enlarged ***(Good shit, this game needs proper anti-airs.***)

  • Push back on block for boost combos reduced

• Far HP - Push back on block for boost combos reduced ***(Almost everyone’s getting these chain combo nerfs, so it’s fair.***)

• Far HK - Push back on block for boost combos reduced

• cr. HP - Hurt box reduced (This should be the go-to anti-air now. Invincible and it can combo into falling sky? That’s what’s up.)

  • Hurt box on arm is now invincible versus jumping attacks

• Wheel Kick - Hit stun frames reduced (L->+1F / M, H, EX->+2F) (This was definitely, definitely needed. It says ‘reduced’ but they meant increased. Wheel kick on hit currently is: L = -2, M = -4, H = -5. And that’s bullshit for an already slow and low damaging move.)

  • When hits in midair it becomes bound damage (Also definitely needed as wheel kick has real application now. Anti-air wheel kick into step kick --> s.HP xx Falling Sky is a great reward for catching someone with a lousy wheel kick.)
  • Damage L. 100->80, M. 110->80, H. 120->90

• L. Wheel Kick - Hit box position changed (Hopefully, it’s not extended downward so the above buff is harder to implement. ;l)

• Tornado Throw - Damage L. 140->160, M. 150->170, H. 160->180 (YES. YES.)

  • Throw invincible from startup until throw activation (THIS IS DELICIOUS.)

• L. Shoulder Tackle - Startup 20F (Still pretty ass.)

• M. Shoulder Tackle - Armor properties added during hit box active frames / Hit effect changed to ground knockback (This will change Abel’s entire metagame. Not as messed up as Zangief’s armor suplex charging bullshit, but this can scare opponents into throwing out certain pokes. Though, the extent of how you can use this is kinda iffy. M/H Shoulders are still 24F startup, which is pretty much molasses. Nevertheless, this is still a wonderful tool to have.)

• H. Shoulder Tackle - Armor properties added during hit box active frames / Counter hit causes wall bounce (This will undoubtedly be one of Abel’s highest risk, high reward options. If you manage to anticipate your opponent throwing something out and go through it on startup, you’d get an EX shoulder combo for free. If you mess up, it’s -7F on block.)

Special move meter gain – (Eh, primary combo enders got meter nerfed. But we’ll see how the overall game changed to accommodate all these meter changes that everyone’s getting.)
• Second Middle: on hit 30->15
• Second Low: whiff 5->10
• Finish Middle: on hit 30->20
• Finish Low: whiff 5->15/on hit 30->40
• Wheel Kick: whiff 15->10/on hit 60->30
• Marseilles Roll: whiff 15->0
• Sky Fall: whiff 10->15/on hit 60->55
• Tornado Throw: whiff 10->20/on hit 60->65
• Shoulder Tackle: whiff 15->0/on hit 40->50

Still salty that step kick remains at a disadvantage and Abel didn’t get his old dash back. But these are still very good buffs overall and he gets an excellent armor tool to use, albeit probably gimmicky.

19

So does wheel kick cause groundbounce in combos too? Like cr.hp->wheel kick->bounce?

I’m excited for a useful ground bounce (CoD low? get that out of here) And the shoulder armor? I wanted that since day 1! Mad hype for the throw invincibility too.

20

Oh! never even thought of that!
If they do something unsafe… Abel would be abel to punish with cr:hp: xx axe kick AND THEN go into a Step kick combo…
That seems a little too obscene…

If it works that way then that’s amazing…
Something tells me that it’s too good to be true and that it’ll only get ground bounce capability if the axe kick “anti airs” or rather, isn’t combod into…
But here’s to hoping that that it does work…

If it does, expect a Abel bandwagon…