I might have to disagree, DeeJay has too many weaknesses against shotos. Fireball spam forces him to move forward and lose his charge (leading to an easy DP or walk up throw if he jumps-in or a cross-up tatsu if he walks towards); he pretty much has nothing for cross up tatsus; plus, if the first two hits of his super are blocked, the last two hits can be dragon punched. However, this is probably just my shoto favoritism shining through.
No you’re right. DJ isn’t top tier.
The big reason why is that DJ has problem with the entire top tier, not just shotos. Rog and Sim are also very tough matches for him. Even though I have always felt the Claw matchup is very winnable honestly Claw does have the advantage. Then of course Ryu is his absolute worst matchup.
I agree that playing against Ryu specifically is a true up hill battle, but all it takes is for Deejay to play the FB game with Ryu until he has meter and time just the right jumpin/slide, for a crossover attempt to end the game with a combo. That is the rarity and usually Deejay just gets out played. At least Guile can hold his own a bit better vs Ryu. My question is: Who is the favorite and by how much, in the Deejay v Ken matchup?
Offhand, I’d have to agree that Dee Jay probably can’t do it. He’s somewhat of a taller character in the cast. His height is why you can’t hurricane kick over max-outs and also why Guile’s c. strong must be blocked low.
Norieaga: Top tier is based on relation not absolute statements like yours. Compare his matchups to Rogs, Ryus or Dhalsims (or Vegas? (s or 's ?!?)) and you’ll see that DJ is just a very solid character - like he’s been back in VST.
“Rog’s, Ryu’s, Dhalsim’s, or Vega’s” :lovin:
Here’s what I had last time:
Bal Dha Veg Ryu Sag Dee E.H Chu M.B Ken Gui Cam Bla Fei T.H Zan Total
Balrog - 5 5.5 5.5 6 6 5 5 6 6 6 4 6 6.5 6 4 82.5
Dhalsim 5 - 4 6 7 6 4 4 5 6 6 3 4.5 5.5 6 6 78
Vega 4.5 6 - 6 6 5 4 5 4 5.5 6.5 5.5 6 6 7 6 83
Ryu 4.5 4 4 - 5 6 7 6 6 6 5 6.5 6 6 5.5 5 82.5
Sagat 4 3 4 5 - 5 5.5 5.5 5 5.5 6 5 5 4.5 6.5 7 76.5
**Dee Jay 4 4 5 4 5 - 6.5 5 6 5 5 6 6 7 6.5 6.5 81.5**
E.Honda 5 6 6 3 4.5 3.5 - 4.5 6 3 4 6.5 6 6.5 8 7 79.5
Chun Li 5 6 5 4 4.5 5 5.5 - 5.5 5.5 5 5.5 5.5 5.5 4.5 7 79
M.Bison 4 5 6 4 5 4 4 4.5 - 4 5 6 5 5 5 6 72.5
Ken 4 4 4.5 4 4.5 5 7 4.5 6 - 4.5 6.5 6 6 5 5.5 77
Guile 4 4 3.5 5 4 5 6 5 5 5.5 - 7 3.5 6 6 7 76.5
Cammy 6 7 4.5 3.5 5 4 3.5 4.5 4 3.5 3 - 5.5 5.5 7 7 73.5
Blanka 4 5.5 4 4 5 4 4 4.5 5 4 6.5 4.5 - 4.5 6.5 7 73
Fei Long3.5 4.5 4 4 5.5 3 3.5 4.5 5 4 4 4.5 5.5 - 6 7 68.5
T.Hawk 4 4 3 4.5 3.5 3.5 2 5.5 5 5 4 3 3.5 4 - 5 59.5
Zangief 6 4 4 5 3 3.5 3 3 4 4.5 3 3 3 3 5 - 57
He seems to favorably compare to Dhalsim, at least!
(As always, feel free to offer comments / corrections on the chart)
I always thought he beat Vega because of cr. mk, cr. jab, j. jab, and his cross-ups? Same way I also thought that his matchup v. Blanka was more than 6-4? Either way, he’s great to use. I just wish I was better with charge characters in general.
Yeah I have some changes to my rankings, here’s how I have it right now:
Dee Jay gives Honda a tougher time than Guile, and vs Blanka is one of the most unfair matches in the game IMO (7-3 Dee Jay, if not 8-2). Also, Dhalsim is too low, he has a slight advantage vs Cammy (6-4) and Blanka (6-4), and can go even with Honda (5-5) IMO. I pretty much agree with everything else though. Here’s your list in descending order based on total points:
Vega 83
Balrog 82.5
Ryu 82.5
Dee Jay 81.5
E.Honda 79.5
Chun Li 79
Dhalsim 78
Ken 77
Sagat 76.5
Guile 76.5
Cammy 73.5
Blanka 73
M.Bison 72.5
Fei Long 68.5
T.Hawk 59.5
Zangief 57
Yeah those Sim matchups are way to pessimistic. No way is Cammy 7-3, especially now that standing short will beat j. mp clean.
Based on that chart the (simplex method) top tier is:
Balrog/Boxer, Vega/Claw , Ryu, Chun Li and Cammy.
Rankings can’t be measured strictly on match ups like that, because of how many top tier chars will be present in a tournament compared to the lower tiers. In essence: How chars do against the top 6 chars, is more important than the bottom 6, so an adjustment of some kind would have to be made. It doesn’t matter so much if Deejay beats Blanka 7-3 or what not as much as how Deejay does against the top guys… just using Deejay as an example here. Deejay has the tools, he just seems not to cut it at the top. I don’t think he’s top 6. Chun-li lower than Honda and Deejay in Thelo’s measurement, for instance, doesn’t sit right.
Sweet, first 2010 post in the Dee Jay thread.
Okay fellas, I was wondering if it was worth it or not to try and upkick Honda in between the two chip hits of his super. If you fail, you lose down charge and thus, upkick and easy defense against a followup buttslam.
I ask because I’m still trying to learn the timing for it.
Typically if you miss, you get hit on the second hit. But yeah, always go for it (or at least practice to get it every time). You get great positioning for a crossup afterwards too.
It depends on your play style and if you think the risk is worth taking. Personally I always go for it, even in VST where the timing is stricter.*
*There has been the odd occasion when I was one hit away from dying and wasn’t confident I had the charge where I did just block.
i find it a lot easier to just up kick honda before the first hit of the super. just do a short up kick as soon as the super animation start (unless he is all the way across the screen, then wait a split second). his super starts up slow enough that even if he is right in front of me i can catch him with the kick. in a lag free game im almost 100 percent hitting honda out of his super, assuming he does it while i have my charge.
Yeah, attempt it between headbutts. Shouldn’t be that hard.
John Rambo and I have been discussing something about guile and we were wondering if this is a change of his for remix. Does guile have throw priority now?
throw priority in what sense? Range?
Both range and speed for example; I’ll intentionally whiff upkicks and when I land I’ll throw my opponent. 95 % of the time I can execute that, but when I play against guile I always lose.