Lol it’s cool, the more teams you have at your disposal the better. And you make both teams work anyway, I’ve switched back to Jam Session after our last set, congrats 
And Yeah, I’ll be making that even from now on (I’ll also be at the mcm- if they have Marvel lol)
[edit] Think I’m going to go against my anti-doom anchor stance and try Cap(ss)/Vergil(Rapid)/Doom(missile). Vergil has always been the stronger 2nd and I’m realizing it’s very easy to tag in doom at whim when I don’t want him as anchor (doom’s not always a bad anchor). But this gives better DHCs that recover meter, can DHC off hyper CS midscreen (very situational for doom with up shot), and blocked hyper CS/SRK > swords into block string with RT glitch and missiles/SS assists is a VERY strong option i did not consider. Cap SS also helps vergil with comboable helm breaker, assist, OTG, etc… and it creates some really dirty block string mix ups with vergil.<br>
I thought I mentioned this earlier, but Cap has some rude fuzzies. Jump and do a late j.L just before the ground, then double jump and j.dH. If your assist doesn’t pick them up after the j.L, I think it becomes a frame trap if the j.dH is done late enough, lol. Haven’t tested fully, but I ran with it a few times in a match with Repulsor Blast and it is not fun to be on the receiving end of that, lol. <br>
Yeah Cap(ss)/Vergil(rs)/Doom(missile) is better. I still don’t like Doom anchor for when things don’t go right, but the advantages are too good with this ordering. The Cap/Vergil shell is insane. <br><br>Cap/Vergil:<br><ul><li>Safe H CS and fully comboable, other CS’s can be used in various pressure strings to allow cap to keep attacking after vergil pushes them.</li><li>After DHCing a blocked hyper to Swords, you are given a LOT of control to abuse SS assist/missiles + vergil RT glitch and do massive chip while gaining that meter back in a free pressure string. It almost makes doing any random hyper into swords a win/win blocked or hit. If I can flesh out the blockstring, You can likely hyper SRK out of all pressure and DHC to swords regardless of it being blocked and feel like it went in your favor.</li><li>Safe DHCs</li><li>DHC to swords combos off all of Caps hypers and leads to full extended combos<br></li><li>Rapidslash assist lets cap combo all OTG SS’s, including midscreen throw (must wave dash though)</li><li>Jump SS + vergil assist is very viable zoning and chip pressure</li><li>DHCing to Vergil bubbles on an airborne opponent has a very decent chance of random crossup, especially if your Cap hyper already crossed them</li><li>THC can be a full screen punish, is safe, and has mix up opportunities as vergil outlasts Cap after he recovers</li></ul>Vergil/Cap:<br><ul><li>Helmbreaker, SS assist + hightime converts to a full combo</li><li>SS assist lets vergil abuse long multi cross up pressure strings with RT and calling cap just as it comes back and teleporting again</li><li>Hyper Bubbles to Hyper CS is a lot of damage</li><li>RT pressure string gives easy tag ins to get Cap back in on point safely<br></li></ul>
I tried out fuzzy guards and they work amazingly with my two characters. You basically get a free set up by doing j.:d:+:h:, block assist, land, j.:l:, delayed :d:+:h:. if you hit on the first hit or the instant over head, it all connects (doom anywhere, vergil corner only) for a free combo. If they block it you are given a nasty frame trap with the follow up j.:d:+:h:. This is amazing for cap, now he doesn’t need to rely on just cross up rolls (because players are getting real wise to mashing throw lately). Naturally mix up with c.:l: once they start to figure it out. <br>
Glad you like it. Even better news, this frame trap can cross up…
Yeah I added examples with my team to the combo thread, Doom missiles gives you a cross up after they block the j.:l: since the delayed :d:+:h: goes over them. Would probably be a good idea to post a list of all characters the overhead works on.
how will I know that I’m doing the fuzzy guard right?
The opponent will be stuck standing. To do a simple test of starting the fuzzy guard, set the dummy to block all, then time a j.d+H with an assist so the overhead lands first, then the assist, then throw out a c.L and some other lows. If the opponent blocks the low, but is still standing that means they’re stuck in fuzzy guard. This means you can do j.L instead of c.L if you’re next to the opponent and it will instant overhead because the model is standing even though they’re attempting to block low (or not at all). Fuzzy guard is simply a way to trap the model in either crouching or standing, but doesn’t prevent them from blocking properly. You just need them standing so that their hitbox is high enough for j.L to connect since it’ll whiff if they crouch.
To test a set up you are somewhat limited on setting up the dummy as you can set it to block standing (low only) but this means your set up can’t start with an overhead before you want to test the instant over head since it will not get blocked. If you find a setup you like, record the dummy attacking and try to block it yourself. A simple one is start in corner, jump forward as you call Vergil rapidslash, then j.d+H, land, j.L, delayed j.d+H. So first try this on the dummy with an empty jump + assist, land, j.L just so you see the over head work.
I dropped Zero from my Cap team as I am getting convinced that Steve works better with two assists to support him. Zero does not really help Cap and its the same the other way around.
What do you guys think of Cap (Charging Star)/Hawkeye (Triple Arrow)/Sentinel (Drones)?
For now, it works quite well for me. The team kinda spammy but it gets the transition to rushdown quite easy as long as Cap is on point. The synergy between Cap and Clint is nothing new and I love that drones assist which help for both keepaway and rushdown. Even with Cap missing, I like Clint as second pick with drones on his butt and Sentinel as anchor seems to work as well.
I play the same team with Zero instead of Cap and this works as good, maybe this Clint/Sentinel shell might have some potential. The only problem I see is heavy keepaway a la morri and Teleporters
I’m not a strong sentinel player by any means but I’m strongly in agreement to always running him 2nd. He’s got an amazing assist, but he’s a really bad anchor despite the comeback factor off a confirm. As 2nd he is very good with Cap. Safe DHC, fullscreen THC (and you can even combo it), solid lock down/mix up, good screen control. Hawkeye makes a better case for anchor as he doesn’t give cap safe DHC, the DHC is a bad for damage anyway, as anchor he has a strong X-factor game. I’m not sure if the 3 make a great team as I’m not sure what Sentinel needs. IMO with Cap teams I’m always very paranoid of match ups with run away zoning and characters that fight from above so I like to have anti-air options within my team. This has lead me to make all my possible Cap teams include: RR(log), Strider(vajra), Doom(missile), Dante(jam), Shuma(ray) and then some horizontal assist OR I have a DHC-able character i can swap to fix the match up…although hawkeye handles that great, he still is a bad secondary for cap in some areas and if he’s anchor cap gets thrown to that spot. Cap/Sent/Strider or Cap/Doom/Hawkeye would be very nice choices that I would attempt.
I don’t think that the DHC is that much of a problem as I never had any problems killing characters with Cap for now and even if his stuff was not enough, an dhc gimlet usually would finish the job. But I see why you would change them and I agree with Clint being a better anchor and Sentinel gives a safe and strong DHC.
I agree as well with picking a viable character/assist which can help with against superjump-height keepaway as it is the biggest problem Cap has to fight with. As Sentinel is not much more as a support character for me I will swap him out for Doom and try out Cap(CS/S&S)/Doom (Missiles)/Clint (Triple) as you suggested.
Yeah that team has pretty good synergy. With Doom missiles, you’ll likely be killing in one combo with most of the cast when using Cap. The only thing the team can’t do is abuse safe CS, but that’s ok since you can just lead with hawkeye arrows.
This if for ifbpwnstar and mynameisE.
So i dropped my team of cap/spencer/doom long ago just because it was way too simple to play for me. I wanted more complicated mixups etc. Additionally, i didn’t have an assist that allowed me to exploit charging star.
I see you guys mention cap/vergil/doom and this seems like something i woudn’t mind picking up because i REALLY want to see what all the vergil fuss is about. Any pointers on trying that team? I have zero experience with vergil but don’t mind putting in lab time. additionally, do you feel it has better overall chemistry than cap/spencer/doom? The latter was providing TODs all day… and they were fairly easy
The team is proven solid. TODs, safe charging stars, conversions, reordered synergy… You wont have many complicated mix ups (though some do definitely exist), you will mostly be getting safe pressure for days and chances to safely abuse CS to punish zoning attempts to keep you out.
Your key tools to get you started:
Cap on point:
• Learn Cap BnB, missiles assist, qcf+L (OTG), qcb+ATKATK, **missiles land, s.H(or S into a TK), qcb+L, qcb+H, qcb+ATKATK. This will get you a lot of easy TODs.
• Throw (unless back throw), rapidslash, qcb+L (OTG), wave dash (3x or 4x), if done right S_if still too far qcb+H, qcb+ATKATK
• Rapidslash, qcb+H(M in corner)…convert or keep attacking for more free pressure
• Rapidslash, cover with Shield Slash to harass and keep out
• Blocked hyper CS > Swords, missiles assist+stinger, RT throw (w/ glitch), teleport L/M, **missiles land, stinger, RT throw (w/glitch), teleport L/M, s.H, shield slash assist, Stinger, ANY teleport. PRESSURE + mix up ender!
• Raw hyper > Swords, sword loop
• Shield slash, hard tag to get vergil out safely if you have a bad match up
• Use Hyper > Swords/Devil to get vergil out in bad match ups
Vergil on point:
• Zone while calling missiles all day
• Helm Breaker, shield slash assist, slight delay, highttime (OTG), land, s.H, combo…
• Abuse Shield Slash assist with block strings into teleport for VERY dirty mix ups. s.H, shield slash assist, Stinger, ANY teleport
Doom on point:
• Rapidslash assist, j.H, qcf+H is a really annoying tactic to spam for chip
• Upshot or finger laser hyper > Devil trigger, teleport is a free mix up full screen
• (corner) Doom BnB, j.S x ADDF, b+H (OTG missile), assist 1+assist 2 - is better than doom lvl 3 in many cases. Vergil out lasts doom and you can tack on a free foot dive, j.qcf+H, qcb+atkatk for even more damage.
• Confirmed Upshot hyper > immediate Devil Trigger, qcb+H, j.HS, land, s.H, stinger, combo…
• block string, shield slash assist, dash cancel, dash jump cancel, do anything in air to mix up on shield returning (this can pull them out of a corner too)
• (on incoming), jump, fly, go up, rapidslash assist, j.S - ambiguous cross up
This team can sit in front of someone and just harass and pressure all day, with nearly any hit being a TOD. In cases where a bad match up occurs due to haggar assists or superior air zoning, make sure to always sit on meter to get vergil out with swords to take advantage and get in. Once vergil got room to start an offense his pressure and shield slash mix ups are incredibly dirty. Learn when to swap vergil and doom though. Doom is often a fine anchor and the missiles with vergil are unfairly OP IMO, but sometimes it’s best to do X-factor lvl 3 vergil when looking at a case where the opponent can run away from solo doom (you cant beat a smart Joe with doom solo…you just can’t).
I do feel this is one of the most optimized teams Cap can have with the tradeoff amongst other teams being:
• You don’t have a quick projectile assist to follow in (you must rely on CS covered by assists, which is better in some ways but not all)
• Vajra is can be better at beating air zoning patters then doom (Wesker jump pistol + a beam is fucking annoying without this for Cap…you’ll wanna get vergil out)
• The basic assist + roll must be planned out smarter due to rapidslash delay. This is good and bad as rapid slash + roll is stupidly ambiguous and + frames on block and you wont fall into predictable s.H+assist, roll patterns like most cap set ups and risk punish…but you lose the easy mode cross up.
I feel Vergil is superior to Spencer for Cap:
• Rapid slash is a MUCH better assist in neutral game for Cap and the extensions are equally as good if not still slightly better
• Vergil DHCs are much stronger on both hit and block
• Vergil sword loop is stronger than zip line extensions if you have the meter (you will)
• Vergil is more versatile with this team in any order than spencer would be and is actually incredible with shield slash assist
Well I haven’t really been using Cap/Vergil/Doom, I picked up Cap/Doom/Dante instead.
As for Spencer vs Vergil team, ifbpwnstar had pretty much covered most of it. It is a lot easier to get the hit, safer strings, safe DHC and generally easier neutral game with Vergil however I find that the team does seem very reliant on meter unless you do Doom TAC combos.
Using Spencer:
[list]There is more variety with resets (this one does depend on creativity though)
Very solid TAC options as an alternative to Doom (especially if hidden missiles hasn’t been used)
Easier to set up Doom TACs
Can start any Cap combo with 1 stock to get 1.3million from anywhere off a Cr.L (can end with almost 1 stock again depending on the character)
Spencer/Doom shell is very efficient with meter[/list]
I agree with most of the points you made ifbpwnstar but stronger DHC on hit is one I’d disagree with, only mid screen is the stronger DHC (which is rare because of how good Cap’s corner push is with his combos). Spencer has extremely good corner combos with the missiles assist that are more efficient than Vergil’s. Versatility in order does depend on how used the player is to the different team orders but I generally find that the only order that is a bit of a pain is Spencer/Doom/Cap which is pretty rare to find in a match assuming you start Cap/Spencer/Doom.
All in all, I do think Vergil is probably the more ideal assist than Spencer but if you ever have less than 1 stock when starting a combo, then it can get a bit tricky unless you’re willing to do TACs (with the right set up to get Doom).
While the team needs meter it batteries itself. Remember we’re working with missiles in this mix. So almost all your Cap combos are doing 1mil + with missiles for a 0.5 meter loss (meaning you only need 0.5 bar to TOD off a c.L). If you kill without the 2nd hyper you’re positive 0.5 meter. Spencer is better in terms of damage for meter spent, but in most cases you’ll be killing anyway before needing more, and if you don’t Spiral Swords will finish anyone off. The teams pressure and ability to constantly chip with missiles in play means you’re gaining lots of meter just from forcing blocks. Cap and Vergil get VERY VERY long block strings with this team. I also feel resets are not a big factor outside throws with these teams due to TODs across the board, and doom already provides a VERY nasty one in corner (see combo thread).
I think the biggest factor, and this is one that causes me not to play many valid 2nd’s for Cap: SAFE DHC. This is VERY important to a Cap player. Cap’s whole game plan is about how to be safe while attacking, which means sometimes you have to blow a hyper or two to get out of bad move. Vergil not only is incredibly safe, the free block string makes up for the 2 lost meter and starts you off in a very good position.
I like spencer but beyond damage extension and being a good character, what he offers Cap isn’t much. Cap needs neutral game support much more than extensions and resets. Cap is a flawed character with great strengths, so your focus should be on addressing his flaws (safety and air dominance).
Thank you both for your info, IFB can you elaborate on rapid slash assist, then H charging star? Do you mean I use the assist to keep charging star safe, or do I hit confirm a naked rapid slash and follow it up with H CS into combo? I’m thinking the former but I just want to be clear.
I’m solid with the Cap double hyper with missiles, but is there a way to extend it a little more with rapid slash? With spencer I know a way but not sure if there is an optimal way to use rapid slash in this combo.
Someone posted a while back about some tech where u call missiles and then u do CS into HCS or maybe HSS even if blocked and then you get a mixup when missiles hit? NOt sure if i’m making this up in my head but could someone elaborate?
I know nothing about Vergil so i’m gonna have to really get some of these sword loops down. Thanks, convinced me to give him a try though. CAp/Spencer/Doom was always strong but i dropped it long ago because the DHC wasnt safe and because couldn’t abuse Charging star. Hope this really improves my success
Elaborate your spencer extension after missiles, that might help me think of something as i usually cant’ extend after missiles.
The CS H + rapidslash, is simply call rapid slash, then immediately charging star H. On block, they get push back and held for awhile. This is free frames in corner and a free get in on mid screen by wave dashing in. If it hits, midscreen or corner screen you can confirm (the rapid slash outlasts the charging star), and full combo. Basically CS H is free to spam so long as they at least block it and vergil isn’t stopped on the follow up.
Im sorry for combo I meant lmhs sj uh l shieldsshieldsash, j uh l shield slash land h+spencer assist, S crH, S Combo ender . Can dhc into Spencer and follow up with tk grapple or just do double hcs with captain america.
Just wondering if I can implement the rapid slash before the end of my combo or if even using it will imrpove my damage.
Off of a stray charging star hit into rapid slasconfirm, what is the full combo u go for?
Thanks a lot I really thought I would give up on captain america just because he wasnt fun to me but u make it seem like vergil opens up a new dimension that I can exploit