No. You’re right. I’m wrong. I don’t know how, but in all the tests I did I must not have timed the button release fast enough. I finally got test cases where reversal dp gets beat by empty jump-in dp after a sweep. I really don’t know how that happened. Sorry all.
I must have by some freak accident actually released the button during the 5th landing frame after blocking until then. Eventually, after a dozen tries tonight, I was able to create an empty jump-in srk after sweep that beat out gief’s spd on reversal, which is a 2 frame grab. Damn I look like a fool now.
With the 2nd option select, The invincibility move will come out after your landing frames, so you end up getting hit and being forced to block/take damage. Otherwise the 3rd case happens if they backdashed. This is if i’ve read it correctly, i can do this but thinking of the exact specifics going on here screws with my mind a bit. Could anyone explain this frame by frame for the second part, also what happens in the case of a 7 move invincibility move, that should help clear things up, thanks.
Edit: Just had a mental blank i think, i’ll explain things in the next post.
Hopefully the below makes sense, it’s just going through the action sequence of where you do the OS jump-in and the Opponent Tiger Upppercuts.
The following sequence is assuming that you timed your Safe-jump right.
Pre-landing frames: You are jumping as the player is in their wakeup motions and you start your HP which the tip should hit the head of a Ryu player or anyone else of similar height i believe.
Attacking frames: At this stage your HP has come out and is in the attack motion, OS shoudl be bufferable for landing frame here or soon after.
**#1 Option occurs here mentioned by OP. ** Mid-air Contact: At This Stage Your HP can hit, and they’ve fully woken up and are hittable, if they’ve reversalled with Tiger Uppercut they’d be invincible.
1st frame of Tiger Upper Cut, Invincible but harmless: You Have just landed,You’re now in the 4 landing frames, the 1st of them and you can’t do anything because you’ve attacked, but your OS has been buffered
2nd frame of Tiger Upper cut., Invincible and stilll harmless: You’re now in the 2nd landing frame and are in the same situation as above.
3rd frame of Tiger Upper cut, Invincible and still harmless: 3rd landing frame, Input is buffered since you can’t attack in landing frames after an attack.
4th frame of Tiger Upper cut, Invincible and still harmless: 4th landing frame, same as above and you’re blocking but have input buffered, blocking can and should occur well before this frame.
8.#2 & #3 Option occurs here mentioned by OP 5th frame and start of Tiger uppercut, Some invincibility properties and harmful!: 5th frame after landing, you can now attack and buffered inputs will occur, You are now forced into an option select, Knowing the attack is buffered, it will perform an “Option Select” here, this term being used loosely. The game reads your inputs knowing that you’re blocking and have an attack buffered and tries to perform the best move here, which it’s blocking rather than srking.
The 8th step occurs whether they tiger uppercut or not and at this option Option Select, if they backdashed at this frame you’d SRK because the game knows you aren’t going to get hit and will let you do the move.
Pretty close… Here is frame by frame breakdown. Hopefully you can make out where it differs from yours…
Let’s make these assumptions: Ryu attacks ken with a jump-in attack immediately after he sweeped him. This is a perfect safe jump setup. Let’s give ken 4 options… 1. Blocking high 2. Fierce DP 3. EX DP 4. Backdash
Let’s indicate frame one as the first frame that allows ken to be hit after the wake-up. If ken blocks high, the jump-in hits him and the OS ends so that ryu’s buffered dp does not activate. Instead, ken can do options 2,3, and 4 and gain invincibility to avoid this.
Here, ken is in the 2nd frame of whatever option he took. While ryu is in a landing frame where he cannot block or execute any move.
At this point, if ken chose option 2 he’d be in the active frames of the fierce DP. This will hit ryu as he cannot block and could not have executed a move yet. This is an example of how an attacking safe jump against a character with a 3 frame invincible attack can get you hit. Options 3 and 4 are left.
This is the 1st frame where ryu can start to block. He cannot yet execute a move.
At this point, option 3 will take affect as the EX dp is active on frame 5. This will hit ryu and can be blocked, but can’t otherwise be avoided. Option 4 remains.
This is the 1st frame of ryu’s DP. Assuming he used mp or hp, the dp will have 4 invincibility frames from this point. Anything that runs out of invincibility in these frames gets beat clean.
Ryu’s dp continues.
Ryu’s dp becomes active. If the character used a move with less invincibility that has not hit ryu yet. That character would get hit.
Ryu’s mp/hp dp remains invincible and active. This is where option 4, ken’s backdash, will run out of invincibility and he will get hit, assuming that he’s close enough.
Ryu’s mp/hp dp loses invincibility. Active frames continue from here on out. If a move were to beat ryu here on, it would need invincibility until at least this frame while being active during an invincible frame. Otherwise, it can trade or be beaten instead depending on the particular details of that move.
So there are 3 ways to cleanly defeat and punish ryu for this OS.
An invincible move that hits on the 2nd or 3rd frames.
An invincible grab which is active at some point from frames 2 - 5. Perhaps later if it’s capable of grabbing out of dp invincibility. An invincible grab that activates on frame 1 will whiff, as ryu is still in the air.
An attack that’s invincible until at least frame 10 and becomes active before invincibility runs out.
Hitting ryu in frames 4 and 5 will cause him to block. And of course, any move that hits ryu or causes him to block will prevent the execution of anything after that point.
Great thread by the way, I have read it many times but I am still unsure exactly how it work so I will ask a couple of ‘basic’ questions:
Safe jump:
I sweep, I jump lets say with Hp if it wiff ( meaning they backdash or use a special) I go on gard as soon I hit the ground.
If my Hp connect I just go on with my blocksting. Because of jumping with an attack I lose 2 frames to block and can be reversed with a 3 frames and less
special move. So I could do an empy jump as a bait not losing those 2 frames and be able to block for example Ryu Shoryuken.
Safe jump , OS srk:
The goal will be to gain an advantage vs backdash or neutral jump or trade with some special ( or beat it i dont know)
so I sweep, jump HP, buffer dragon punch … now is the goal to hit punch right away ? My DP will come out if they backdash , neutral jump or other special since
It will have make my original J.HP whiff. If they reverse me with a DP I guess I can go on block since my JHP has hit them and my own DP doesnt come out because it change the timing.
Aslo if for some reason my Chp connect with a hit and is not block , I guess my Dp simply come out and combo
Another thing does the move choosen for my jumping attack matter for the overall timing ? Where should I try to hit my J.HP , Is it alwasys at the same
height for every character ?
Thx for sharing some light, Do I get the concept right or I am just totally wrong…lol
Correct. Also, if you use negative edge to do a dp the moment you touch the ground, you should beat a reversal DP off a safe jump. This is because your dp after jumping in will start one frame later than the reversal on a perfect safe jump, make the invincibility last one frame longer.
I’d say to hit punch for the dp just before you hit the ground. It’s hard to really describe the timing. Best go to training mode and keep trying to narrow down the timing like I suggested in OP.
Incorrect. If you connect, hit or block, the freeze frames should prevent your buffered DP from coming out. If you want a dp to come out anyway on hit, you’ll have to redo the motion and button press really quick once you see it hit. That kind of hit confirm should be feasible. But it’s going to take a lot of effort to develop the capability to do that.
The move chosen has very little effect on timing, I believe. As to where to hit it… You preferably want to time the jump-in to connect as deep as possible. So that the active frames for it start just before you hit the ground. You don’t want to run out of active frames before you’re in landing frames, in other words.
So the timing of the DP after, J.HP, should be just after the cancelling window. Now if Ken for example decide to reverse me with a medium DP witch is 4 frames,
do I have to block on reaction. After inputing j.hp, dp is it reaction time ??? blocking if I see a reversal and continuing with my blockstring if my J.hp connect.
I am correct to say some special move I have to block and some other will trade with my OS shoryuken simply depending on the fact that some Special still get hit by
my J.hp but are invicible but some other special just make my J.hp whiff.
I am rewatching all Daigo videos and I really see it in a brand new light !!! after a normal throw , almost 100% of the time he will take 2 step back and J.hp.
with the reverse throw, he move 1 step foward and Jump. With a Sweep always jump instantly using either J.hp or J.hk. I realise this is a HUGE part of his game and most of his big damage comme this way. In one video vs a very good Boxer after a normal throw he takes 1 step back instead of 2 and opponent obvisouly fall for the cross up , having been conditioned by his normal set up.
I’m not sure what you mean by “just after the cancelling window”. The timing of the buffered dp should be right before your jump-in would connect. The timing of a post-jump dp which could combo with the jump-in is actually relatively loose since many jump-in attacks give a lot of hit stun. There is no “cancelling” of jump-in attacks for ryu, as the only character I’m aware of that can do that is c.viper, and only with her mid-air special.
You couldn’t possibly block the reversal on reaction.
It’s feasible to create a triple option select, as ranix found, by blocking right after buffering the dp. That will block 4 or 5 frame reversals when you do a perfect safe jump attack. I’m not aware of any player that clearly has fully incorporated this into their game yet. It’s pretty character specific as to usefulness.
Invincibility on frame 1 is what makes a perfect safe jump attack whiff. That’s the only property that matters.
Some characters don’t require perfect safe jump setups. In the case of boxer, his EX headbutt reversal doesn’t come out until the 12th frame. (Even his super and ultra take 10 and 11 frames respectively.) This gives you a lot of time to attack him with a jump-in while still being safe. Though he does have a few shenanigans with ex dash punches that can catch you if you’re not aware of them and can give him a possible getaway.
Did I get it backward… I have to input the Dragon punch motion before hitting punch ? So the punch will act as the a 2 ways input getting a Dp out vs a special and hitting them with my HP if they decide to block. If thats the case its much simpler than what I was practicing : Jhp then inputing Dp at a timing that it wont come out if Jhp connect.
So what happen if for example Ken do his 4 frames DP reversal ? Does he get hit by my own DP because it comes out exactly 1 frame after his ?
Does my Dp beat all character backdash and neutral jump ?
So If I am playing a character that his very DP reversal happy woulnt be better to simply , JHP, block and then punish with a bigger combo; Safe jump without OS srk
thx for your answers,
I just edited my post after reading page 1. I think I got it now…I hope. I jump in Hp, I buffer Dp motion and then its simply a question of timing. If my Hp whiff I hit punch the instant I hit the ground to beat their special or trade. If Hp connect then I do whatever I want. I think you mentionned there is a danger of my Dp coming out if I hit pucnh after connect. So I guess Its better to use a clk, grab or anything else then a pucnh to continue my blockstring
When you start the jump-attack is different from when the jump-in connects. You need to hit the button for your jump-in attack before you enter the buffered special move. You could use negative edge to buffer the dp, if you wanted to.
The example I gave was “UF jump hk ~ dpm lp”. So you could start entering the joystick motion for the dp right after you hit the button for the jump in. There is some leeway on this. If you do it really slow (with joysticks inputs at most roughly 7 frames of each other) then you could start the motion before the jump-in attack was initiated. But I don’t see any reason to.
The 4 frame dp reversal would function exactly the same as a 5 frame dp reversal in the case of a perfect safe jump attack. You can block it. But it’ll connect on you before the buffered special comes out, since you attacked in the air.
Any non-lp DP can technically beat all neutral jumps. Some characters have neutral jump attacks that might be able to stuff or trade with the dp though. That’s dependent on timing and probably isn’t relevant for jump-in OS since neutral jump does not grant invincibility frames.
Backdash depends on the character. A character like chun-li, for an extreme example, would be able to backdash out of the dp I believe.
It is always a good idea to intelligently bait “DP reversal happy” players. They are essentially handing you the game on a silver platter. (Not that I’m not often guilty of being dp reversal happy myself. It’s a difficult habit to squash. And dp reversals are not in any way useless. Just dangerous as hell.)
Edit: You buffer the dp, motion and button press/release both, before the game engine even determines if you connected or whiffed. The point of the OS is that you don’t need to react based on whether or not your jump-in connected for that quick dp to come out only on the whiff. What you do after you connect is up to you of course. If you did it right, you can delay punch after you connect to continue the block/hit string, and it should not cause a dp to come out unless you did the dp motion a second time.
Guess there’s still some confusion… Ok, let me try to break it down. Each step happens at a different time in sequence.
You sweep.
You jump forward.
You hit a button to start your jump-in attack so that the active frames of the jump in attack last until you touch the ground.
You do the dp motion and press the button to buffer the dp.
Your jump-in either connects and you land. Or it whiffs and you land.
If it whiffed, the buffered dp would come out on its own. If it connected, the opponent is now in hit or block stun, and the buffered dp fails to come out.
If the buffered dp came out, you can’t do anything until you recover from the move or you FADC it if it connected early enough. If the buffered dp didn’t come out, you’re now free to input whatever move you want while your opponent is in block/hit stun. You may or may not have to delay a punch button press to avoid doing a dp due to the joystick motion buffer. But it should be ok as long as you don’t press it the instant you land.
Thx, your last post removes any confusion I had left, finally its simply inputing 2 inputs in a row with the right timing.
I was thinking about a concept to fool character who have 3 frames reversal.
FAKE SAFE JUMP: Normal grab, take one step back but jump 1 frame earlier than normal, J.hp, block.
It wouldnt work with a Sweep because we have to jump instantly.
Ground Os : As I understand those are all done on wake up too.
Cmk xx FB : Does the best player all confirm their FB. It seem very advanced. I think I am guilty of inputing my quarter circle way to fast; its can be done really slow
and in a controlled manner and the FB come out. Think it just a bad habit because done very fast it work too. The Cmk most be fast, not the cancelling motion.
with the controlled manner it also solve all the problem of getting a DP out when youre walking… Need a metronome LOL
I am unsure about the DP motion to defend againt the Cross up. Is the idea to input: foward, down, foward then hit punch very late to make sure it auto-corrected or opponent hit us a fraction of time before and our foward motion block. What about negative edge ? Is the idea to release the button just after our opponent hit us and Dp him if there a Gap in his blockstring.
Also I have to be pretty sure its not an ambigious cross-up since I will hit punch too late when it doesnt cross-up.
I always favor negative edge when I’m faced with a situation where an incorrectly timed button press is a disadvantage. There are two major situations that this applies to…
Reversals that attempt to include a positional OS where blocking is involved. Honestly, I’m still trying to understand how to apply this myself.
Empty jump-ins into specials on the ground. Of course, in order to do this you must already be holding the button down before you jump. I like to throw out a random jab or short, just before I start holding fierce, in order to hide it.
Lets say I safe jump Sagat with J.hp, can I hit my next attack lets say c.lk and still block his reversal. Is there like a reaction thing like I have to block If I see the reversal and otherwise I continue my blockstring. Basically what I want to know is my mind set after J.hp , do I have to block preentively the reversal or I will always have time to react no matters what.
Did you test it out with the training dummy? The last time i practiced this i believe if i hit c.lk/c.lp after a safejump as soon as i landed whilst hold D/B, i blocked reversal after the safe jump, so the timing is slightly delayed i believe.
Is it possible to set up dummy doing a reversal upon wake up ? When I test some Safe jump stuff I recorded dummy sweeping and doing the safe jump and I am the one defending it.
Safe jump on sagat is difficult as he gets up a frame later than almost all other characters. If you do the sweep and then immediately UF to j.hp, sagat should be able to just stand there. The jump-in will whiff, every time. Try it.
You have to delay a small bit. And if you delay by more than two frames, you face getting hit by an uppercut reversal.
If you DO manage to get a real safe jump to happen, then you can jump-in to block without fear of getting hit out of a followup ground attack. Blocking while throwing out a ground normal on attacking safe jump versus a 4 or 5 frame reversal WILL make a block come out before your ground attack can start. There is no way you could press the ground normal too early in a perfect attacking safe jump situation.
So what youre saying is after a safe jump its good to start doing my block string with my stick at block position.
On a different issue I ve notice that character dont get up facing the same direction after a sweep or a throw. One of them will have character
facing other direction for a split second. Does it have any incidence at all on the general wake up game ?
Ive read in the Safe jump in guide that Blanka get beat if he doesnt use his Ex version of his vertical ball. We had a dicussion about this on another
tread but I think you were saying normal version was good enough ( I might not remember well…)
About hit confirming c.mk xx fireball. Do you have any idea how to do this ? I am sure its a big key to Ryu game , since then you can confirm Ex fireball in the corner or ex tatsu. You dont waste your Super…lol also. You FADC with confidence ,
Also vs opponent who can blast throw a block 2 in 1 ,seems very handy.
I would be very surprised if a lot of Ryu can hit confirm it, seem like a top player skill.