Can you elaborate on there not being any empty frames? The MP has two hits, you can block the first hit and if you hold down immediately after, you will get hit w/ the second. Are you saying there is only 1 hitbox but it counts as two?
If so why would I be able to block the first but still get hit by the 2nd? If its 1 hitbox that counts as 2 hits, then there would be no need to delay, as you can hit MP off of a normal safe jump. Unless the landing frames are somehow negating that? I vaguely remember someone (Gilley?) discussing something about the MP hits but it was a long time ago.
Like I said Im 99.999% positive that you need a delay of 3/4 frames to get 2 hits (and gets beat). The only reason it is not 100% is because yall are saying it definetely can beat both reversals. If any of you guys can show a video on it doing it would be great. It could be taken w/ a cell phone cam it wouldnt matter to me.
Just make sure you have the inputs turned on.
Darth: Trust me I tried it more than a few times, more like 40. When I tried it, the MP is hit early enough so that its already active before Balrog wakes up into the 1st hit and still have a 2nd hit. If I were to press it just 1 frame later then only 1 hit. 1 frame ealier and no hits.
Im gonna test it one more time just for the sake of clarity but if it comes out with the same Im just gonna leave it be until someone is able to record it.
Ok I justed retested and I got the 2 hit MP off of a two frame delayed jump. At first I could only get it only if I swept from point blank range. I kept doing it from a normal range (without changing anything) and managed to get it from a normal range. Now it’ll do it sometimes and sometimes not so I guess it “misfires” When it does get the two hits it will beat the ex straight. If you delay 3 frames Ryu will get hit. If you delay 1 frame then you only get 1 hit and safely block.
But like I said the ppad could be off by a frame or less so I guess take it w/ a grain of salt. The frames arent important really, only whether it is possible or not. So there ya go.
It can switch between hitboxes without having empty frames in between. It is one active hitbox for a few frames followed immediately by another for a few frames.
One thing I personally still dont get, is this : if im leaving a 1-2 frame pause before the J.MP, how the hell am I blocking the MP and FP HBs and pausing on LP?! Theli I know you answered this, and I totally get what you said about the HBs preventing my sweep, but if this is just a 1-2 frame pasue, there no way MP and FP HBs should be going active prior to my sweep coming out.
And yes, it was the same recording of J.MP that beat EX Straight. so Im still UBER confused. Somehow Im hitting EX Straight, which is 5 frame start-up, meaning I cant be leaving more than a 2 (?) frame gap. Soooooo, Im leaving a 2 frame gap, my OSd C.FK SHOULD be coming out on frame 6 (i think… im busy today so this post it a little rushed) yet somehow a move with 12 frame start-up is coming out first… lol wut?!
Theli dont get me wrong, I believe what you said about the HB hitboxes must be right, but I still cant workout the frames so that i can simultenously beat EX Straight and have my OS move come out later than fierce headbutt…
And I missed a big chunk of discussion over this…but anyhow…
^This. This is exactly how I envisioned this safe jump. =)
Basically it’s: Sweep -> wait a few frames before safe jumping -> hit with last active frame of first hit of j.mp on the first frame of opponent’s wakeup -> profit
This is both a safe jump and a timed meaty. =O
As far as I know, if there was actually a non-active gap of say…3 frames between hits, eventhubs frame data would look like this.
3(3)4
But instead it’s 3*4, which to me suggests that the first hit has 3 active frames, and the 2nd hit comes immediately after with a 4 frame duration.
Yea thinking about it and kinda answering my own questions on how it is possible to block the 1st but get hit on the 2nd:
I was speaking about a non wake up jump in. So I think what it is happening is I am blocking the first frame of the first hit , then the remaining 2 frames turn into recovery before the 1st frame of the second hit comes out. In other words, the second hit doesnt come out as soon as the 1st hit connects, unless you hit on the 3rd frame.
Ok, let’s assume you did this perfectly and managed to get 2 frames in the air for the 2 hits of j.mp before landing. (Which is extremely hard to do and not practical.) I can imagine that the rest works like this:
(W = boxer wake-up. T=ryu touchdown and considered “frame 0” for our purposes. 1-? = frames after landing)
W-T1B3FL6M8H
B= The first frame ryu is able to block. This would be frame 5 after boxer wake-up. 2nd frame after ryu landing. (3rd frame that ryu is on the ground.)
F= The first frame ryu is able to do any action other than get hit or block after the jump-in attack.
L= When lp headbutt would go active. As ryu will be crouching all this time, it has no chance of hitting him.
M= When mp headbutt would go active.
H= When hp heabutt would go active.
Assuming the frame data is right, this must mean that you are starting the sweep later than you think. But still early enough for it to function as an OS against boxer. If you tried to reproduce this, you might find that you sweep lp HB, are blocked by mp, but get hit by hp. Or you sweep lp and get hit by both mp and hp.
Even if you’re in the air longer than 2 frames, you’d only shift the above around some. It could potentially look like this:
W—T1BLFM6H … OR … W----T1(B+L)3(F+M)4H
Fighting games can be very good at fooling you. You might think you did the sweep early enough to be a classic OS, but that might not be the case.
OR, the frame data for boxer’s headbutts might have been wrong all this time. I can’t say for sure.
Yeah. The goal is hitting the first hit meaty in order to get the 2nd hit to connect before landing. Even with this, I suspect that this would be too hard to time to do consistently.
However, it might still be worth trying if the opponent is suspected of attempting an EX dash punch to get out of pressure. Even if you fail to time the j.mp correctly, this could still be considered an attacking safe jump versus boxer despite the slight delay.
Theli you say I might not be hitting it early to do a classic OS. What other OSs are there (as in ones that pertain to jump-in)? I mean I know that if I get Rog to block the sweep will not come out, which seems like the regular OS. what other kind of OS are you refering to…?
I actually used this J.MP OS C.FK in a match last night and had it work btw I dont find it to be that hard once you get used to it. (The opponent did some sort of EX Dash, though I dunno which one, and i beat it. HURRAH!)
Normally, you want to take advantage of the 4 frames of jumping attack landing recovery to get the attack out as soon as possible. (You make use of the recovery as a buffer. And I refer to this as “classic” as it’s usually what you want to do, I think.) But if you did that in this case, you would probably get beat by a non-lp headbutt.
Get Rog to block? Do you mean, have rog make ryu block?
He could have tried an EX swing blow (overhead) dash. That can sometimes get people who safe jump and aren’t paying attention, and it gives you a lot more time than the quick dash punches do. I really don’t think it’s so easy to time it against the upper and straight.
^ which is why Im confused. Cause I did buffer it, proven by the fact that when Rog blocks the C.FK doesnt come out and when he backdashes it does, yet I didnt get beaten by any headbutt… i think im going to have to test the frame data on HBs, something isnt right here. Either my OS C.FK isnt coming out on the first availble frame even though its buffered (in which case were missing some info), or Rogs frame data is wrong (in which case were still missing some info), or im going insane (this latter one is most probable).
Dash swing blow wouldnt work btw. the J.MP would beat it. The only way Rog has of getting out of this OS is to use a normal that lowers his hitbox immediately, like instant wake-up C.LK.
J.MP hits high, if he does C.LK the J.MP will whiff. Thats not overly relevant though. Unless youre using J.MP every time, he isnt likely to risk hitting C.LK and eating a J.FP to the face.
Oh, or armour cancel. Overpowered bastard. Its still worth using it here and there though. Like everything, you dont wanna use it all the time, but its definately worth using with moderation.
The hit stop is long enough for you to hit the sweep after the 4 frames of landing recovery would have been over, but before the hit stop of the connected jump-in is over.
Just think about it. The hit stop of a fierce or roundhouse is around 13 frames. That’s considerably more than however many frames you take to land and recover from the landing. And since you’re doing a normal, the available amount of time to buffer is even less I think. (I think specials have a little extra buffer beyond the 4 frames recovery, although I can’t prove it atm.) You could easily be hitting c.hk a little after your landing recovery runs out and not even realize it. It would still result in the same expected behaviour against characters with slow reversals, like boxer.
Exactly. I’m not suggesting it would work. I’m suggesting that you might have beat it with the jump-in mp, but since it allows so many more frames for you to be in the air before you get hit… You may have jumped later than you should have in order to beat the two quick EX dahes. It’s impossible to say unless you review their inputs in a recorded match.
I like the idea of J.mp and everything but I dont think we can call it a ‘Safe jump’ since its not safe.
Because we have to leave an intentionnal gap, Balrog can change his reversals timing and beat us.
Were banking on an opponent mistake to make it work.
Unless I am missing something obvious it seem more like a trick than anything else.
Balrog can change his reversal timing (ie. making it not a reversal) to beat you if you attempt an option select after. But if you just block on landing, I’m pretty sure he’s stuck.
^ Rog can beat it with armour cancel but other than that its nothing to do with his timing. If you hit J.MP correctly and he doesnt a) hit a low poke on the first wake-up frame (hell of a risk) or b) armour cancel, he cant beat it. Im talking about the J.MP here btw, not the C.FK OS. I still havent tested that enough.
There are 2 things I dont quite understand about his armour cancel actually. 1) Why dont many Rogs use it? It doesnt cost any extra metre. and b) how does it make the second attack quicker? For example, if you input EX Dash and cancel to ultra, the ultra will hit quicker than it normally does. How’s that work? Presuming it gets rid of start-up frames, but why?
What would rog armor cancel into in order to beat a well-timed j.mp into block? You should just end up blocking whatever he armor cancelled into.
I’m not sure a low poke would work. It might. But I’d think it’d just get beat by the latter frames of j.mp.
Armor cancel isn’t the easiest thing in the world to do. And you can do it with enough practice. But I don’t see it giving any advantage on an attacking safe jump into block.
Armor cancel doesn’t make the 2nd attack quicker. Did you hear from somewhere that it does?
Armour cancel really isnt hard at all. I thought it was until last night when I messed around with rog for a few hours. Its pretty easy TBH, all you do is charge B, F, B + 2P/2K then mash the hell out of forwards + your attack. I had presumed it was really hard to last night, took me maybe 10 minutes to get it down fairly consistantly.
I didnt hear about the Armour cancel speeding up the 2nd hit, its just from my testing with Balrog last night. Im turning the system on right now to test i (SRK is like the worst vice you could have when you cant concerntrate on work lol)
Theli; I think it does happen though, and it seems to be because Ryu gets stuck in freeze frames for the armour that Rog cancel out of and into his next move. Testing now though so ill let you kow.
EDIT : k; im wrong about the quicker second hit thing. Must have been some random online shenanigans.
EDIT 2 : Just did EX Upper Cancel EX UPpper and it hit the J.MP. I was only blocking after my J.MP too. Tested the same recording VS T.Hawk’s Bustser (5 frame start-up) and the J.MP was safe. EX Upper is 7 frame start-up. SOOOOOOO… fudge ems… I must be missing some vital clue about Rog, cause Ive never been this confused about SF ever. These tests VS Rog have really stumped me.
Yup. There is some weird freeze thing going on with the armour cancels. When I do J.MP and have Rog EX Upper and armour canel into another EX Upper, I can see the Ryu freeze in midair whilst the Rog does not.
EX Upper XX EX Upper was able to punish something that EX Upper alone could not?
Also, I didn’t know you can armor cancel an EX move back into itself. Weird.
It’s strange to think that there’s a mechanic in the game that allows you to cancel your own hit stop. This is definitely something that needs a video.
I thnk it was Upper X Uppper… hmmm… mayber was different dash into upper, but either way, none of the EX moves by themselves would be able to punish (minimum start-up 7 frames). If I could take a vid i would.
I dont find it to be that hard once you get used to it. (The opponent did some sort of EX Dash, though I dunno which one, and i beat it. HURRAH!)
(SRK is like the worst vice you could have when you cant concerntrate on work lol)