Attacking while avoiding being parried

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
1

I think we all know that Yang can be pretty strong in the right hands. But one thing that’s inevitable is getting parried, then his low stamina shows its face. Unlike Yun, you gotta get in and deal your damage normally which puts you at risk every time. But if you play in a certain way to minimize the reward of an opponent’s guesses, you can probably win in a more consistent manner.

Haha, sounds like I’m the one going to give the advice, but I’m actually asking how to do this. So far I’ve noticed the following, but it’s nothing great:
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[]regular and EX mantis by themselves are severely underrated. They’re pretty good at punishing whiffs and even as a counter to some low pokes. Plus if you do EX, even if they parry you can continue with more hits, forcing them to think there’s no point in parrying in that situation to begin with.
[]after resetting someone, don’t hit low until you see how they react once landing a few times. A lot of people parry low here, especially shotos and Chun. See above.
[]avoid getting predictable with HK or MK dive kicks (or any with the intention of touching them above their waist), it’s a huge risk against Ken, Chun, Urien, and more.
[]when cornering characters with big corner comeback potential like Dudley, Urien, or Makoto, you don’t want to get parried and then thrown (like Urien trading sides). So one thing I do with Yang is what I do with Ken, keep your game outside of throw range, or throw/anti-throw a lot: far HP, far MK, c.MK into whatever, EX or regular mantis by themselves, maybe even some palm tricks. If I get close or do a dive kick (either hitting or landing close from it), depending on the depth of the hit I try not to throw because if I mess up the timing and whiff I could get thrown, so I replace it with jump back HP against tall characters.
[/LIST]

Most of that is pretty obvious I guess. Ironically, I’m really good at parrying, but when a Ken or Chun parries it would pay off a lot more than mine do so I need to fix that. Yang clearly has strengths that those characters don’t have that I need to start putting to good use. So let’s hear some strategies or any comments.

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  • Many characters can parry an ex slash and punish you.
  • Jump back fierce is dangerous against people that are looking for it.

If you’re going to corner someone, you don’t always need to attack. Might as well sit there if you’ve got a lead, and react if they do something rather than throwing out random things and possibly dying from it.

Kara throw with Yang is for some reason all but unknown to everyone other than Roshihikari [and me, since I copy him, heh heh]. In addition to kara-throwing [which is a short], you can tap forward right before the kara, and gain more range. You can grab people before they expect it, and get easy neutral throws in. Once they start looking for it, then you can throw in other shit.

I keep saying it, but Roshihikari is an amazing oddball example of how to play Yang. Goemon/boss/other yangs dive kick all day, and throw in things like jab x3/crossup tricks/blah blah. Roshi keeps it basic. He stays on the ground against chun [see him v MOV or him v Nuki] and is one of the very few that use slashes as pokes in of themselves. He’s also the only japanese Yang I’ve seen to do sj crossup tricks after slash knockdowns. WHICH ARE REALLY FUCKING GOOD. I use them all the time. Knockdown -> SJ over with a forward, and suddenly you have a lot of choices of what to do.

Palm tricks are really gimmicky btw. KO does that shit all the time [see last ranbat], but I figure he can get away with it since he’s got such a good hold on how to kill people.

I figure standing short is underused. You can play footsies with someone, and if they whiff something, you can walk forward and s.short -> ex it.

A good Ken is a fucking nightmare. I play against Ricky O/Emphy a lot in tournament and in casual, and playing against Kens like them is retarded. You have to slow down the pace of the game or you’re going to get rushed.

Brings me to another thing. Boss/Goemon/Hiroken maybe are seemingly all momentum players. They land a knockdown and try to make it turn into a domino effect. The problem is, a lot of people that watch their videos can’t play like them. Some people are better off playing smart, rather than rushdown city.

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Yeah no wonder, I’m cursed as one of those dive kicking Goemon-style Yangs. I know it’s flawed but I only use SA2, that’s why I always stay on the opponent, so the stun doesn’t diminish. If I back off the chance of landing a free post-stun combo is lessened, and Yang doesn’t really have a win button combo to even out the hits you take while you’re playing defensively. I suppose that’s Yang’s biggest drawback; that you have to choose between going all out and putting yourself in risky situations, or you stay put and lose one of his biggest momentum-based strengths (stun).

Oh and I thought his kara was standing HK? According to the kara range thread it’s 13 (pixels?) added compared to LK which is 10. I’ve been using HK all along, it works okay.

At this point even bad Kens are a bitch, but my philosophy is this: the Japanese rate it 4-6 which isn’t too bad, Yang has good tools and speed, mobility, stun, etc. so I’m just hoping the problem is the way I’m handling that matchup, rather than how bad it objectively might be.

I’ll give the grounded style a chance though. Maybe I would get parried less if I picked SA3 instead and just forgot about stun entirely. Funny, I’ve seen more of Roshihikari than other Yangs for a long time but I’m still unable to play like him.

4

Well one thing that you could possibly use, and this goes on the note of the crossing up while the opponent is knocked down, is meaty crossup divekick, or crossup air kick chain. Remember though, you must input the divekick the other way if you cross them though with the kick chain. Those can lead to combo possiblilities.

Also you can whiff cross up sj. mk’s and divekick, and do something after those as well to mess up parry timing, which in turn leads to more combos for you.

You can also work on reaction time and ex slash things with very laggy recovery, as well as punish things with a heavy frame disadvantage on block, with ex slashes.

Sometimes, you can bait whiffs if you make the block a cl. mk, super jump to the other side and dive kick away from them. They’ll try and swat you, and you’ll be on the ground ready to knock them down. Remember that once you cross them, you have to input the dive the other direction(db + k instead of df + k). Do not however try this in the corner, this is only for midscreen use.

I play a lot like Roshi myself. He’s sort of an idol to me I guess. One thing I don’t see a lot of people doing except him is cl. mk, but he seems to get away with it and set it up well.

But just keep at it, just watch matches and take things out that you think would help your play style out.

5

Yang has a ridiculous amount of options on wake-up that will decrease your opponents chances of parrying. Here are some I use often:

  • A whiffed overhead into a command grab is great for a defensive player or if your rushdown hasn’t used any grabs yet. Be careful with timing.

  • Far low roundhouse. Imo a very underrated normal. Great distance and recovers plenty fast enough against a quick stand to do another. Note: Chun can punish (only close range iirc) on block if she has SA2. :wasted:

  • A slightly delayed low standing into slashes. More accurately I should say though to watch your opponent on wake-up. After a few knockdowns against Yang, people resort to turtle-like low blocking. The moment they move forward or backwards they are up for low standing slashes.

  • However risky, change up mantis slash timing. This also works well with mp.hp.bhp chain combo. If strong > fierce is blocked, change between a delayed back fierce or not doing it at all. This may lead to your opponent attempting to forward parrying the delayed back fierce only to eat a low standing mantis.

These works best in the corner:

  • Close Strong > Byakko (qcb.p) > Fierce. Close strong serves mostly for block stun to buffer the byakko but if it hits and you can react fast enough, slash. If the Byakko connects, the Fierce can reset them in the air. If the Byakko is blocked, the fierce can immediatly hit them. The fierce stuffs alot of normals due to meaty byakko block stun. Fierce can also be substituted with low roundhouse, mk overhead or divekick setups.

  • Close Strong > FAKE Byakko (qcb.ppp). The fake sets up a walk up grab. Can also bait a forward parry.

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If you really want to have a good Yang, drop the gimmicks and work on your basics. Keep a gimmicky trick or two that you can throw out if you really need it [see Goemon v Raoh], but drop everything else. Every Yang [which is not a lot] I’ve seen that’s learning him tries to do some combo video crap, when in reality Yang is the most ungimmicky character you can find.

Also, unless you’re K.O. [who has an exceptional grasp on basics] or just have activated seiei enbu, palms shouldn’t be used.

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very useful information gentlemen

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Deadeye is correct though. As with anything if your basics are not solid, then you won’t get very far with Yang at all.

He’s probably one of the most vanilla characters in the game it seems like, which is why I play him. Everyone else is too complicated(well just saying, I know not every character isn’t as complicated as I think.)

Hit confirming with him is very important, as it is with any other character, but with Yang it is very important because of his low health. Any yang should at least know cr. mk xx ex slashes, st. mp, st. lk xx ex slashes, and cr. lk x 2 xx ex slashes. If your slashes are running out of gas, as we like to say around here, then after the first pp for the first slash, drum your fingers over the punch buttons so you have more inputs(this is only for ex version though).

I’m trying to experiment now with meaty crossup divekick on wake up(I mean the one that goes through their body and hits on the other side), as well as meaty sj. mk on wakeup.

I usually use meaty crossup dives against shotos, chun, mak, necro, elena, oro and some others I leave out, since I forget some of the list, and also mix up the timing to make it whiff as well. Probably do this about once per match to see if it gains me anything. Works anywhere if you can get the timing down, but best in the corner I find, and there’s not much people can do about it.

I do meaty sj. mk against Dudley, Alex, Urien, Q, Hugo, and Twelve, and also mix it up so that it hits, doesn’t hit, etc. Probably do this once or twice a match to see if they bite or do something. This is probably best used for after a regular slash combo midscreen, since you can time it to hit them out of their quickrise meaty and such.

Don’t get me wrong though, I’d rather just stay on the ground and wait for them to whiff something laggy so I can punish them myself, then close in and mixup and pressure from there. But that’s something peeps could use.

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Don’t get too happy with the cross-up dive kicks because the risk and reward is not worth it. Even if you use them sparingly, good players will pretty much always block them and even worse parry it. You’re basically just option selecting when defending against this: parry the way you think it will hit and if it doesn’t work you’re in the direction to block it anyway.

I’ve helped Deadeye realize that it’s not so good multiple times with parry dive kick > half life f+mk x mp upper xx rocket upper > knockdown in the corner > meaty rose in your face > dudley wake-up shenanigans = ouch :badboy:. ROM SUCKS!

So once again, basics ftw.

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You’re right about that. I don’t really jump alot anymore with Yang these days, because of things like that, since there is a Dudley player around here that does that same thing to me whenever I try.:sad:

Usually, I’ll do it if I completely convinced that they won’t punish, or I’ve trained em not to do so, but all the time, hell no, that shit’s too risky.

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Thanks to all for contributing. Took a while to get some Yang casuals in since I made this thread, but now I have a general idea of what went right and wrong. Probably the most underrated thing ever is walk up kara throw like Deadeye said before. Because of Yang’s quick walking speed it really bugs people, plus neutral throw does some decent stun. Also, people (mostly Kens) don’t really backdash out of it unlike the command grab, since you can do it in much less obvious situations. Tick, walk up kthrow; whiff something, walk back then forward kthrow; j.HK, maybe duck for a split second then walk up kthrow, etc. Not as good against Yun players though since they often jump out of throw setups.

Getting parried seemed like much less of an obstacle than I predicted (compared to before when I just used Yang casually on the side). Hopefully that’s a not-so-obvious way of showing improvement.

Any details I should know about that superjump crossup? There seem to be a lot of variables since every character gets up at different speeds.

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About the sj crossup setups:

You can do this against a lot of the cast, except usually you’ll choose not to do it against characters that wake up really slowly [mak/chun/etc], since that means you’ll have to sit still for a bit, time it and then jump to try and get the crossup/fake crossup. Against Mak it’s not so much of a problem, since her quick recover is relatively fast compared to chun, so you can just do it and hope they quick recover. If they don’t, well you’re next to them anyways so whatever.

You basically get a knockdown with slashes, then sj over towards them immediately, the important thing is to add the forward at the very end to try and make it look confusing. You can omit the damn thing if you want. You have to watch the shoto closely though, if you attempt to do this when the shoto quick recovers, you’re going to eat something [which is the main reason you don’t do the forward early in the sky]. So if you see the quick recover, stop your jump with a whiffed short divekick. Usually you can get away with it fairly often, however sometimes a ken will see the dive and low forward xx super you if you’re close enough. Sometimes he’ll whiff the shoryu since you stopped right in front of him. Whatever.

If you get the crossup, [or even if you fuck up and land while they’re still waking up, that’s still good, since then you can play point blank wakeup games], mix it up with close strong xx slashes, command throws, etc.

If you fuck up, and land early, then you can do things like whiff strong -> command throw; or whiff strong then standing strong -> short xx EX - you get the idea.

Now that I think of it, most of the time against shotos, you’ll land early, so play those wakeup games.

The safest bet when you actually do get the crossup confusion is to standing strong xx slash. If you misjudge where you’ve landed, a command throw can turn into a senkyutai, or a slash turn into a palm, etc. Going low seems to be what everyone usually expects, and if the guy getting crossed up is going to guess [which is dumb], guessing low covers both sides, so if you go low, he can just spam down and catch you.

Shit I typed out a lot, hope this makes some sense.

Edit: A lot of the times I play against ken, when they quick recover [ken’s seems faster than the others, it probably is] you’d better be ready either to commit yourself to the jumping forward xx dive, or cancel the jump into a short dive. Everyone else has some specific timing, go into training mode if you really want to use the crossup correctly. Otherwise much of the time you get that point blank wakeup game I talked about, which is a really good tool itself.

Also, standing forward [not the launch] is really good on crouching Ryu but not Ken. It stuffs a lot of his shit, and he seems to get hit by it much easier than Ken.